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Old 02-06-2013, 01:12 PM   #81
glhx
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Not yet. There is a cover over the fpr. As soon as I check it ill post the results here. It could be a broken diaphragm or a loose line. The regulator was replaced 20k ago
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:25 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by glhx View Post
Not yet. There is a cover over the fpr. As soon as I check it ill post the results here. It could be a broken diaphragm or a loose line. The regulator was replaced 20k ago
And one more check while you are there.
Check the FPR if it holds vacuum or not.
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Old 02-06-2013, 04:04 PM   #83
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The vacuum line at the regulator was connected....the regulator is fine. The vacuum line has no holes in it.


The vacuum lines hole at the end became too large over time making it not fit snug on the regulator.

Probably the cause of all this. Visual inspection was fine.

A 50 cent vacuum line 3" long.....
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:05 PM   #84
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The vac leak from that hose was due to not running bmw vacuum hose. I ran the same hose but zip tied it to the nipple and that made it not leak. I will get the right hose soon.

Unfortunately. It did not do anything to fix the fuel trims. Tonight they went into the 14 range on STFT. But the long term is still 11.7.

There is still a large surge from when I'm rolling to stomping on the gas.

Idle STFT are still in range but they are all negative values.

STFT goes into the NIH + range when I hit the gas......if I floor it....it goes to 0.

I thought this would fix it.

I'm about to just buy a maf and 2 o2 sensors. I have all the new data logged. For my run after that was fixed....

I'm still running lean
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:07 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by glhx View Post
The vac leak from that hose was due to not running bmw vacuum hose. I ran the same hose but zip tied it to the nipple and that made it not leak. I will get the right hose soon.

Unfortunately. It did not do anything to fix the fuel trims. Tonight they went into the 14 range on STFT. But the long term is still 11.7.

There is still a large surge from when I'm rolling to stomping on the gas.

Idle STFT are still in range but they are all negative values.

STFT goes into the NIH + range when I hit the gas......if I floor it....it goes to 0.

I thought this would fix it.

I'm about to just buy a maf and 2 o2 sensors. I have all the new data logged. For my run after that was fixed....

I'm still running lean
Sorry to hang you out there. I had to go to daughter's school function this afternoon.

Somehow I thought you had only short term fuel trim problem during partial throttle from looking at log chart I made below and your postings emphasizing STFT problem.

That's why I asked you check the vacuum at FPR.
However, I realized my reasoning was wrong while I was preparing to respond to you.
First of all, I am sorry to make you chase the wrong thing.

Here was my thought:
Your lean condition happens on partial throttle not during idle.
If there is vacuum leak, it will affect idle more than partial or heavy throttle.
So I eliminated the vacuum leak as your problem.

Since this lean condition happens only during partial throttle, what is the difference between idle and partial throttle? manifold vacuum/pressure.
Any fuel system that is controlled by manifold vacuum? FPR
If vacuum at FPR is disconnected, what will happen?
I thought it will not get a assist from engine vacuum and will not maintain proper differential fuel pressure between fuel rail and manifold causing less fuel flow than expected during partial throttle.

Then I realized, actually FPR it is not working that way.
Disconnected FPR vacuum will affect idle with more fuel than anticipated because fuel pressure at the fuel rail is higher than normal because since there is no vacuum pulling (reducing) the spring diaphragm in the FPR. You mentioned also 20 psi jump when the vacuum line was disconnected. And I should know that vaccum at FPT was functioning properly becasue you got 50 PSI at idle.

Disconnected vacuum line will not affect at partial or heavy throttle because manifold vacuum is close to zero or even positive pressure due to intake system design.

Sorry about it again, but this will not be the last time I will be wrong about things.

Then, here I see you also have not ideal LTFT which put vacuum leak back into equation.

You can change O2 sensor anyway because your car has more than 100K and probably SAP too because it is broken. However, let's not give up more than that yet and go to blind part changing mode.
I want to work with you and learn some new stuffs along the way like today.
Only problem is I am slow thinker and even slower typing on keyboards, so you have to be patient a little.

Can we do a fresh start and track back a little?
I want to see following PIDs all together.
You can send me the logs, and I will chart them out.
Please be selective since I have a full plate too with 4 cars. All are over 100Kmiles

Test conditions:
1. Idle (after completely warmed up) and 2500 rpm steady state like you did for the chart below.
2. drive to work from start.
3. One mode that you think showing the problem clearly

Please set the engine displacement to 3.0 liter in vehicle editor.
I don't know this is used for Volumemetrci efficiency or not.

PIDs:
Engine RPM(rpm)
Throttle Position(Manifold)(%)
Mass Air Flow Rate(g/s)
Speed (OBD)(mph)
O2 Volts Bank 1 sensor 1(V)
O2 Volts Bank 1 sensor 2(V)
O2 Volts Bank 2 sensor 1(V)
O2 Volts Bank 2 sensor 2(V)
Fuel Trim Bank 1 Long Term(%)
Fuel Trim Bank 1 Short Term(%)
Fuel Trim Bank 2 Long Term(%)
Fuel Trim Bank 2 Short Term(%)
Turbo Boost & Vacuum Gauge(in HG)
Engine Coolant Temperature(°C)
Volumetric Efficiency (Calculated)(%)
BTW, is your throttle position near 10% at closed throttle?
Mine shows 0 at closed throttle.


Last edited by dslboomer; 02-07-2013 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:10 AM   #86
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The fpr line had a loose connection anyway.....so fixing that was something that needed to be done. I'm glad you pointed it out. I'm just glad everyone is here helping me with this. Many minds are better than one and everyone's experience is valuable. Your graphs look far better than mine do.

I don't mind chasing a lead to fix this problem at all.
I'm ordering the o2 sensors tonight but I'm going to hold off on the maf.
If you think it's the maf ill get that too.

I will log all of that stuff today and have it to you ASAP. I have learned a lot from this problem which can be used for many cars.....and picked up some tools to help aid this process. Without the torque pro app that JFoj recommended we would be grasping at straws here.

One thing you did mention that caught my attention the most.........yes....my throttle is 10.2% at idle......I wonder what this means. Does the iac completely control idle or does throttle need to be open a little. It seems to idle fine but its that off idle that's not fine. And the tft at idle red mostly negative values.....they are n range but hey are negative.

The trims go up when climbing a hill. I have some data I already did before I saw your post showing it at STFT +14 climbing a hill.....I'll send that now and the rest of the requested logged info later today.

My long term fuel trims have stayed +10 to +11.7 this whole time. They never move into range. This is high but doesn't seem high for a vacuum leak but I don't know for sure. Can't rule that out. Which would draw more air n from a leaked source.....idle vacuum or pressure from high rpms.


The torque pro app is set up at 3.0

We have possible
Maf failure under reporting air
Possible air leak
Weak fuel pump
Under performing regulator
Faulty o2 sensors
Possible bad throttle body

And......here is another thing that doesn't make sense to me.......why are my o2 sensors not seeing this lean condition. They never go lean just bounce up and down.

Maybe it's time to create a huge vacuum leak to see if they will go lean.

Last edited by glhx; 02-07-2013 at 02:14 AM.
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:57 PM   #87
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Another site pointed out something I will check.

The lower n take boot has very little vacuum at idle because the throttle is closed. It gets lots of air when throttle is open.

While I do know the intake lot isn't torn......maybe it's seated slightly crooked or letting in just enough extra air to mess me up.

This would be after the maf sensor but wouldn't cause a vacuum leak at idle.

Looking at the symptoms of a torn boot. I doubt this is true but I need to check into it.

Maf will be ordered today.....o2 sensors will be picked up tomorrow....and sap should be fixed tomorrow as well. I doubt o2 sensors are the culprit....but they are past 100,000. ......if they are original. They seem to be working really well for old parts. Bu we need to see when they com into closed loop and how they come in. Sap fix will show it. I remember seeing they come in and go lean....then the post cats come in.
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:40 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by glhx View Post

And......here is another thing that doesn't make sense to me.......why are my o2 sensors not seeing this lean condition. They never go lean just bounce up and down.

Maybe it's time to create a huge vacuum leak to see if they will go lean.

Even though your engine is in lean condition, DME is able to adjust LTFT and STFT to compensate for lean condition and trying to make perfect combustion. If you create a large vacuum leak, DME will reach the adjusting limit and set the check engine light. By then, oxygen sensor will stay lean. If you look at the post cat O2 sensors, they will stay on lean side most of time.

O2 sensor is bouncing because it's voltage output changes vary rapidly off the perfect A/F ratio (0.45 voltage). It tell you O2 sensor is working good and engine combustion is good too.

Possible causes of lean including what you pointed out are:
1. Vacuum leak
2. MAF under reporting
3. Fuel pump volume not sufficient (I don't think this is cause since you have LTFT off at idle too)
4. Clogged injectors delivering less than ideal volume (have you used Techron fuel cleaner by Chevron? Try a couple of them for consecutive fill)
5. Possible throttle body issue (aslo question why 10% at idle) have you tried throttle body adaption reset?

Last edited by dslboomer; 02-08-2013 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:36 AM   #89
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how can i set the throttle body adaptation? I tried two ways because i saw 2 ways and dont know which way works. turn key on to 2 for 10 seconds tuen it off for 10 seconds...start car

2nd way was to turn key to 1 for 10 seconds turn to 0 for 10 seconds ....start car...neither brought it back to 0. we should try to confirm it should be at 0. i still didnt buy the maf yet. will do that tomorrow. i would rather not if the tb is a problem.......either way. there was no change from that 10% at idle

sent a pm

I think the data will show whats wrong with this. Im looking at the throttle body more and more.

Last edited by glhx; 02-08-2013 at 02:36 AM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:36 AM   #90
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how can i set the throttle body adaptation? I tried two ways because i saw 2 ways and dont know which way works. turn key on to 2 for 10 seconds tuen it off for 10 seconds...start car

2nd way was to turn key to 1 for 10 seconds turn to 0 for 10 seconds ....start car...neither brought it back to 0. we should try to confirm it should be at 0. i still didnt buy the maf yet. will do that tomorrow. i would rather not if the tb is a problem

sent a pm

I think the data will show whats wrong with this. Im looking at the throttle body more and more.
Try this procedure for throttle body adaption.
I am not familiar with PA soft. I have INPA and GT1.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=631647
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:03 AM   #91
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I tried the turn key to on position right before engine start for 10 seconds.
Turned it off for 10 seconds
Started car

I also tried turn key on press and hold gas pedal for 5 seconds....turn key off and release gas.....wait 2 minutes......throttle body stayed at 10%

I don't know if there should have been noticed or clicks but nothing happened to indicate any change

Last edited by glhx; 02-08-2013 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:35 AM   #92
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My trims are behaving the same. I do not have any problems under load or city driving. My SES is illuminated whenever cruising down from highway speeds when my foot is off the gas pedal.

I don't think the problem is the fuel pump, since I replaced it along with the filter and nothing has changed. I also replaced O2 sensors, which actually made things worse.

So my money is on either a subtle vacuum leak, an under reporting MAF, or partially clogged injectors.

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Last edited by SeanC; 02-08-2013 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:53 AM   #93
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What's your throttle position at idle mine is at 10 others say 0. It's not confirmed yet.

Mine could be injectors......but all 6 and that sudden. I have not used the horn because I don't want to clog them if that makes sense

I thought you put a maf on your car....or switched them, I'm on the verge of buying a new one.

My other post is for throttle position at idle......they talk of air distribution manifold being clogged. This could be a lean off idle problem. I haven't thought out the logic of it yet.

Look at the graph above.....tp is not matching. It flatlined to 10. If this is normal then it's fine. If not it could be both our problems. Your light went off when mine did. What was your code

My idle trims in open loop read positive in range......in closed loop they are negative

Last edited by glhx; 02-08-2013 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:06 PM   #94
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I switched a MAF from a friend's and checked the readings at idle. Got the same numbers. A better test would have been driving the car with the switched MAF for a week after resetting adaptations. That I didn't do, so MAF might still be an issue.

Not sure if INPA shows throttle position (I think it did). If so, I'll check. I haven't considered this before, it might be worth a shot. My codes have always been lean codes. OBD2 equivalents are P0171 and P0174.

I also replaced air distribution piece. Although the original had some carbon build up, it looked like the chances of it being clogged are slim. I'd pass on it.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:42 PM   #95
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my torque pro gave me those codes for a little while ......but they went away for some reason. my pa soft shows my throttle position at 0 and torque pro shows them at 10%

im also going to look at timing advance and battery voltage.....if battery voltage is weak.....then it might deliver good voltage at idle....but not under heavy load. your getting the 1071....but where are you getting it....idle....cruise....or load.....i pinpointed mine to acceleration using fuel trims.....they spiked under acceleration.....went back to normal at idle.....and were hard to read at cruise.

new graphs are showing more and more info as the people who know how to use them ....get a chance to see the data.

also....to check fuel filter or pump....put a gauge on the rail. should be 50 psi all the time. step on the brakes and put the engine under load to see if pressure goes down. i even checked my fuel trims...they spiked when i did this.....but my pressure stayed at 50....good fuel pump....good filter.......could not check flow....because i dont know what flows at what point per hour. when my car is good ill document all of this and post it for reference.

Last edited by glhx; 02-08-2013 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:04 PM   #96
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when i disconnected my brake booster i cause a huge vacuum leak....it didnt affect ltft at all....it affected stft....they maxed out to +15


but this leak was at idle.....and my problem i dont think is at idle. still i think it should have affected ltft.....they stayed at +11.7

ive seen this happen though on a scanner....when they disconnected the booster.....long term trims went to 30 and short term trims went to 15.....this happened right away. when he fixed the leak .....alll went bac k to normal right away. it was the end of scanner danners 49 minute fuel trim expalnation on you tube.....which is excellent by the way. Mcuistian on there is good too

Last edited by glhx; 02-08-2013 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:52 PM   #97
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I made a typo in my previous post. I meant to say I replaced my fuel pump along with the filter. So I'm pretty sure my fuel delivery is working fine except for the slight possibility of partially clogged injector(s).

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Old 02-08-2013, 08:24 PM   #98
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All injectors clogged at the same time.....with no misfire codes.
?

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Old 02-08-2013, 08:36 PM   #99
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I don't think all injector will clog all at one time......usually the front and back two start giving trouble....then the rest......it would probably show individual cylinder misfires first....with my problem...bank 1 and 2 showed at once. It's like saying both o2 sensors as going to out an once...not likely.....I will find out tonight.....I'm putting them in as we speak. I know it won't solve this...then rule that out for sure and ill know they are ok

Injector cleaning is $20 per injector from witch hunter.makes them new and balanced

Last edited by glhx; 02-08-2013 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:22 PM   #100
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Why do you assume that all 6 have to clog at the same time in order show symptoms like yours? It may be a partial clog on a single injector (one in each bank to be precise), and a not so severe case will first throw a lean code before misfires start to happen. By the way, I did see a misfire code on cylinder 5 before. Cleared it, and after some Techron treatments they haven't come back. Also, my lean codes also did not tick in at the same rate on both banks. Bank 2 always leaned out before bank 1, which is consistent with a Cylinder 5 misfire code I had before.

Injector problems (especially in colder climates) have been reported on early 330s, and the parts since then have been updated by BMW. Maybe injectors are to blame in these not-so-easy to trace codes? Who knows...

I still think injectors are a remote possibility and a vacuum leak or a MAF problem is more likely, but I think they are something to keep an eye out for.
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