E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > E46 BMW > General E46 Forum

General E46 Forum
This is the place to get answers, opinions and everything you need related to your E46 (sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon) BMW!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-09-2013, 04:20 AM   #101
dslboomer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Show-me state
Posts: 518
My Ride: 2001 BMW 330I
glhx,

I want to ask these questions:
1. Do you have codes related to fuel trim?
2. Do you have some type of mod in your engine?
I always assume people have stock BMW and genuine BMW replacement parts then blind sided by mods and parts like cat-less header, crazy oil catch can, Chinese knock-off MAF, and knock-off thermostat etc...

If your answer is no, then I think your MAF is the problem.
It is under reporting by almost 15% compared to mine at 2500 rpm.

Here is the summary for 60 data points (1 minutes) for each test



This local road driving shows your STFT is behaving normal: adding on acceleration and subtracting on deceleration. Your real problem is flat line LTFT for both banks. Both LTFTs are stuck at 11.72 regardless of driving condition. I don't know if that is the maximum LTFT.
I tried to create a large vacuum leak by pulling out brake booster hose as you did, oil filler cap, one of CCV hose, but they failed to move the LTFT at all. Only STFT shot up to 25%. My LTFT for bank 2 varies from 6 to 9.5, and I was suspecting vacuum leak. Now I am convinced that majority of deviation is not caused by vacuum leak but probably deteriorating MAF. My vacuum lines were replaced about year ago. I don't know if I have to let it run for a while for STFT to move LTFT, but LTFT didn't move right away with the brake booster hose off.



All your effort should directed toward moving the LTFT to normal range. Until you have a success moving the number in anyway, I cannot help you anymore. No matter how many test data I review, the conclusion will be same.

Here is the comparison of yours and mine at 2500 rpm, 75 mph test.
My STFT are near zero, but your STFT are still adding on top of LTFT.
Your speed is GPS, and mine is OBD. You should use OBD speed.
I had hard time finding steady 2500 rpm and speed from all your data. You certainly don't have steady foot or you may not have a flat and strait stretch of highway like I do.


Last edited by dslboomer; 02-13-2013 at 04:03 PM.
dslboomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2013, 04:52 AM   #102
dslboomer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Show-me state
Posts: 518
My Ride: 2001 BMW 330I
About throttle position at ilde

I am going to reserve this post to talk about the throttle position and idle speed control.

You may forget about the throttle adaption reset etc. I don't think it works. I am going to verify with INPA when I come back from a trip to the Wind city.

This what I found.
I was curious why you have 10% throttle position at idle but I have 0 %. And many times, I din't see throttle position on torque pro was changing when I was driving around the local road and light acceleration.
I was pushing accelerator pedal, and engine speed was increasing. However, throttle position value was not moving until I push the accelerator pedal substantially.

Well, it turns out, idle control valve was actually changing the engine speed at low engine load. MDK (throttle body) sensors' value were not changing at all when I observed using INPA.

This may related to adaption.
And it makes me think you may have dirty and sticking idle control valve also.
This may be also related to under reporting MAF.

This is analog data view using INPA.

dslboomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2013, 08:10 AM   #103
glhx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 671
My Ride: 2002 BMW 330ci
We never could confirm if the mass air flow sensor the former owner put on this car was Chinese or not. I ran part numbers and could not find an American or European supplier. Then I looked at other part numbers that people said were stock and they showed up the same way.

I went to bma part yesterday and just ordered a new maf sensor. Then I will at least know where it came from.

Upon installation of the o2 sensors last night. I drove around normally with no highway driving and the LTFT went down to 10.9 for both banks.

The secondary air pump was installed as well but is not working because the relay is bad....it's on order with the maf.

There are not many flat places here n Tennessee. They have rolling hills everywhere so it is hard to keep a steady foot.

As for the rest of the parts.....I only put on the best parts I can find from good sources.....I stay away from the cheaper stuff even on trusted sites we use....brands like URO or mtc I try to stay away from.

The car is stock. This car won't be modified with any items. It will sta factory. There are too many things to go wrong with them to change things....

I never have had any codes showing fuel trim....

I only got codes for o2 deviation....deviation rich for both banks.....and if this helps.....it only happens during highway cruise.

I don't thnk this will matter much but I did find a valve cover leak. Small leak on the passenger side above the o2 sensor.....there was oil film covering the bolt. I don't think it's a leaking gasket.....probably a cracked valve cover.

I did log the data after the o2 sensor was replaced but I'm going to see long term what's affected. Will see what the new maf does....if it doesn't do anything. Will clean the icv. And we can go from there.

I did verify idle was 0% from pa soft.



I want to thank you for taking this time to help me. I've learned a lot and hope this will be fixed soon.

Last edited by glhx; 02-09-2013 at 08:32 AM.
glhx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2013, 08:28 AM   #104
glhx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 671
My Ride: 2002 BMW 330ci
What do you use to graph your data

So the icv completely controls idle and low engine load?

I noticed my roque pro...acted the same. I took a lot to get it to move from idle. I wonder if I set up a new profile and type in the car specs again.....if the throttle position will go to 0 like it shows in pa soft

Last edited by glhx; 02-09-2013 at 08:35 AM.
glhx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2013, 09:39 AM   #105
dslboomer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Show-me state
Posts: 518
My Ride: 2001 BMW 330I
Quote:
Originally Posted by glhx View Post
What do you use to graph your data

So the icv completely controls idle and low engine load?

I noticed my roque pro...acted the same. I took a lot to get it to move from idle. I wonder if I set up a new profile and type in the car specs again.....if the throttle position will go to 0 like it shows in pa soft
I use MS Excel for graphing.
Idle control valve controls idle and low engine load.
I have not used pa soft and don't know the capability, but you can try to find idle contol valve duty, accelerator pedal angle etc ....

Idle and low load engine rpm were completely handled by icv.
But this is not the major concern for your problem as I said earlier. Ltft has to be your top priority. I noticed one of your test that one of post cat sensor was behaving a little odd. I will check it out later. Best way to check the o2 sensors' working condition looking at their signals while sap is operating. Send me the data when you have sap running. 1st 5 minutes will be good on morning cold start. It is good that ltft was moved after new o2 sensors.

You may post graphs if you see some significant change. If I want to see the raw data, I will pm you.

Last edited by dslboomer; 02-13-2013 at 04:05 PM.
dslboomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2013, 10:09 AM   #106
glhx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 671
My Ride: 2002 BMW 330ci
From what I've heard the post cats only tell the computer that the cats are functional. What exactly are the posts cat o2 sensors used for. I know they tell the computer the cats are performing.....but what does the computer do with this information.....does it change fuel.

Last edited by glhx; 02-12-2013 at 02:03 AM.
glhx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 02:01 AM   #107
glhx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 671
My Ride: 2002 BMW 330ci
I clear this code and it comes back while cruising.

When I took my o2 sensors out they didn't show any signs of rich.....in fact they showed lean.

I know this could really be a lean code....but maybe there is something in there that any of you see as a clue

E4/B1 - Oxygen sensor controller, bank 2, deviation too great, deviation rich
E3/B1 - Oxygen sensor controller, bank 1, deviation too great, deviation rich

Computer sees lean and says to add gas.....so the injectors add gas and that makes it run rich?....

I've checked into this code.....whenever I see it....I see many codes to go with it.....I just have those 2 codes.
glhx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 05:09 AM   #108
jfoj
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fairfax, VA USA
Posts: 9,283
My Ride: '06 330CiC, '03 M5
Quote:
Originally Posted by glhx View Post
I clear this code and it comes back while cruising.

When I took my o2 sensors out they didn't show any signs of rich.....in fact they showed lean.

Explain the above statement, when I took my O2 sensors out, they show lean? Is this due to coloring?? You cannot always determine what is going on by color, but it can be an indicator of exhaust gas stream and fuel mixture

I know this could really be a lean code....but maybe there is something in there that any of you see as a clue

E4/B1 - Oxygen sensor controller, bank 2, deviation too great, deviation rich
E3/B1 - Oxygen sensor controller, bank 1, deviation too great, deviation rich

This code is unfortunately an issue of semantics, the O2 sensor controller deviation is too great in the rich direction, meaning the engine is running too lean or there is too much oxygen still in the exhaust stream, the DME is trying to run in a full fuel enrichment direction and it is hard against the limit trying to run rich and cannot add any more fuel and what fuel it is trying to add is not enough to swing the fuel mixture back in the proper direction. Therefore it is really a "lean" indicator.

Computer sees lean and says to add gas.....so the injectors add gas and that makes it run rich?....

O2 sensors are ready very lean,

DME sees engine running very lean based upon O2 sensor feedbak, tries to enrich mixture, but there is no improvement in "lean" condition when fuel is added and/or the enrichment command (injector pulse width or on time) is not allowing more fuel to enter the engine. DME is against its "hard" or software upper enrichment level.

I've checked into this code.....whenever I see it....I see many codes to go with it.....I just have those 2 codes.

I assume you mean you see many references for these codes when you look them up or search it on the Internet? Unfortunately at times there can be incorrect and/or conflicting data out there. I have seen this even in the Bentley manual for some codes. Unclear is the Bentley incorrect or are some of the codes very unclear??
My responses in bold above.

Some issues that may cause this condition are the following:

MAF under reporting airflow during cruise
Air leaking into exhaust stream while cruising
Lack of fuel while cruising due to pressure, volume or wrong injectors
Unfortunately there could be some very unusual problem, like a corrupt DME ,wrong DME/Program, cam timing issues, but this is far less likely and you cannot really expect to look at very unusual things until you have had a chance to get all the sensors replaced and updated. Make sure you really inspect all sensor wiring as you are working on the car to see if you can identify anything strange or unusual since you do not know the entire vehicle history.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 02-12-2013 at 05:17 AM.
jfoj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 07:56 PM   #109
glhx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 671
My Ride: 2002 BMW 330ci
With the Maf replaced.

LTFT down to 5.5%......after a 55 mile drive. So that's good. They are cut in half.

The 5.5 and 6.2% in short term making the long terms go into that range are still happening at acceleration.

Where else could acceleration make them go into those ranges.

Idle looks even better than before......maf is a solid 4.

Would vanos do this.....pre maf upper intake boot seal. Valve cover gasket leak?

This still seems a little high.
glhx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 09:00 PM   #110
jfoj
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fairfax, VA USA
Posts: 9,283
My Ride: '06 330CiC, '03 M5
What are the STFT at idle?

What are the STFT at cruise?

You may need to be patient as without INPA you cannot reset the adaptations, so you may have to wait up to a few weeks before you can determine your new baseline?
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
jfoj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 10:05 PM   #111
dslboomer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Show-me state
Posts: 518
My Ride: 2001 BMW 330I
Quote:
Originally Posted by glhx View Post
With the Maf replaced.

LTFT down to 5.5%......after a 55 mile drive. So that's good. They are cut in half.

The 5.5 and 6.2% in short term making the long terms go into that range are still happening at acceleration.

Where else could acceleration make them go into those ranges.

Idle looks even better than before......maf is a solid 4.

Would vanos do this.....pre maf upper intake boot seal. Valve cover gasket leak?

This still seems a little high.
Good that MAF wasn't waste of money. That's a sigh of relief for me because it is hard to tell MAF is bad or not even after comparing data.
I probably need to change the MAF too if I want to make my LTFT near zero.

I don't know why you are hung up with STFT.
I don't see anything wrong with + 5 to 6% STFT during acceleration and subtraction during deceleration. They are transient states, and there is no perfect calibration mapping that will account for many variables and aging of components. There lies the beauty of the closed loop modern engine control.
I will worry about it if you are getting the same numbers at steady state engine speed as before.

I didn't respond many of your questions before, but here are over simplified answers.
There is a basic fuel mapping (calibration) from factory.
LTFT is to compensate for engine to engine variability and aging, and it becomes part of basic calibration to control fuel injection duration.
STFT is used to fine tune the fuel injection duration. Oxygen sensor's voltage changes drastically off 0.45 V if combustion gas deviates even slightly out of perfect A/F ratio. I.e. it basically can tell three states of combustion: ideal, lean, rich. To try to achieve perfect combustion, STFT is continuously modified so that oxygen sensor changes the state from lean to rich continuously. If oxygen sensor stays on one side, it is not ideal combustion.

Later wide band oxygen sensor has ability to tell amount of deviation off the ideal combustion. Therefore, it gives ability to precisely control STFT too.

On another question about post-cat O2 signals. Its primary function is to monitor operation of cats. But it also influence fuel adaption. Post cat O2 sensor changes very slowly due to the catalytic converter's reservoir effect, and it gives you real good indication if overall fuel control is lean or rich. Per BMW tech document, it uses that info for fuel adaption.

Sorry I am not good at communicating. Hope you have some basic idea about them.

Last edited by dslboomer; 02-13-2013 at 04:07 PM.
dslboomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 06:57 AM   #112
jfoj
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fairfax, VA USA
Posts: 9,283
My Ride: '06 330CiC, '03 M5
glhx,

Did you see much of a physical different on the inside between your old and new MAF?

Do you think the old MAF was a counterfeit?

Any pictures of old and new MAF differences?

The reason I ask is there seems to be a trend of counterfeit/really poor quality MAF's showing up and it causes problems and headaches just like you are having, very hard to condemn the "newer" MAF and even harder to stomach replacing it again with a known quality MAF.

Not sure what is going on, however, you mentioned this MAF was put on about 20k miles ago? Seems that either the MAF had issues from day 1, which I am guessing is the case, the MAF deteriorate far quicker than expected or the MAF had some issue with airflow measurements off idle in the cruise range.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 02-13-2013 at 07:03 AM.
jfoj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2013, 03:13 AM   #113
dslboomer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Show-me state
Posts: 518
My Ride: 2001 BMW 330I
glhx,
Here is the comparison with the new MAF. Comparison base is your new MAF.



It is clearly better at idle even surpassing mine, but MAF reading virtually didn't change at 70 mph test even though it lowered the LTFT.
One thing I noticed is that throttle angle for the test with the new MAF is about 2% less than previous test. I am guessing you might not tested at the same stretch of highway. Think this way for exaggerated example: 2500 rpm in park and 2500 rpm driving on inclined road will have vastly different engine load. Your gas pedal positions, throttle angle, and manifold vacuum will be different. You should include the manifold vacuum in the log. Knowing this, it was dangerous comparing your data with mine at 70 mph (2500 rpm) because we are not testing at the same location and weather (temperature, due point, wind, etc). I think we can get by with idle test.

This is the graph for 70 mph.
STFT is still biased toward plus side.
If this was related vacuum leak, it would have shown at idle too.
Do you have any Evaporative Emission System related problem?
You may disconnect the evap purge valve under the intake and check it out.


Last edited by dslboomer; 02-27-2013 at 03:15 AM.
dslboomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 06:18 PM   #114
glhx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 671
My Ride: 2002 BMW 330ci
The old and new maf look he same. The part number added the Z on the end. The number was also not stamped on the top like the new one is.

Knock off......I have no idea. It looks the part of oe.

Should I cut it open?
glhx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 06:23 PM   #115
glhx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 671
My Ride: 2002 BMW 330ci
I do have an evap problem.

The readiness codes for evap are not complete even though the sap was repaired and shows complete now.

Give me some ideas on diagnosing evap system. What will disconnecting it do

My smoke tester isn't built yet but I have the parts to do so.

The test I gave you was on a very flat stretch in Florida. Lower sea level. Since it was so flat I was able to hold rpm easier. Around here in Tennessee it is all hills.

I have noticed STFT in the plus side up to +7 to +10 at times. LTFT has gone from 2.3 to 4 to 1.8 to 4.9 etc.....right now I'm doing vcg and vanos seals, so the car is down.

Last edited by glhx; 03-01-2013 at 06:32 PM.
glhx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use