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Old 01-22-2013, 04:35 PM   #61
Act of God
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It has not always been that way in our society.....it's gotten progressively more lop sided as time has progressed.
Yeah, because we have lulled more and more of the American people into consuming zombies reliant on government. The mass is getting dumber, less-motivated and more reliant.

Take all this into consideration and the result should be expected.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:38 PM   #62
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Certainly not his fault alone, but he was the captain at the helm when the economic ship of the U.S. ran deeply aground, so as the one primarily responsible I feel justified in my label.

According to polls, most Americans seem to feel that Bush (and the GOP) should be held primarily responsible, both for the initial meltdown and the subsequent difficult recovery that it took to repair our severely damaged economy that Obama inherited (hence Obama's reelection even in still challenging economic times).
Polls? Do you not see the people who answer these polls? They don't know Obama from Romney half the time. Polls lol

Bush had nothing to do with the real estate collapse. In fact, he wrote asking for an audi of fannie/freddie twice because he was worried something bad was going to happen. Bwaney Fwank said no way dude, I got this everything is cool!

So I guess this is Obama's unemployment now? The rate is the same as when he took office, and there are now record numbers of people out of the workforce so real unemployment is far higher.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:40 PM   #63
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If you aren't making it rain on people with thousands or hundreds of dollars present day, you won't do it with millions

If one day you make millions... it won't be the result of giving it away carelessly
It was a nice "gesture". In all honesty I would give a little bit (a certain percentage of my income) to those really in need (not charities, but individuals) and then tell the capable to work harder and smarter like the rest of us and start contributing.
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Originally Posted by SonicBoom
Europeans are stoopid. They keep splitting countries, while being jealous of our powa. Of course the EU is good for them, but does that have any real power?

Not even mentioning the efficiencies of larger countries.

As divided as this country is, at least we are one.
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:22 PM   #64
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Why are liberals so wrapped around the topic of wealth distribution?
Most of us are middle-class types, and we want our money back.
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:50 PM   #65
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Not quite sure what you mean by this. I presume you mean that I don't ask everyone I meet how much they make and castigate those who make above some amount? In a "micro"/individual way, no, I don't do this.

However, in a broader "macro"/societal perspective, yes, I am concerned about the possible negative impacts of the over-concentration of wealth and thus, power and influence within a very small sector of our society.

Beyond any moral/ethical questions, I think there are very pragmatic concerns that too much wealth disparity, both in itself and as symptomatic of other problems, can lead to very real problems from social instability/chaos (a rather Burkean conservative concern) to an overall decline in the economic strength and robustness of our society. A possible historical precedent might be the Gilded Age of the mid/late 19th century (which we are now surpassing in terms of economic disparities) and the social unrest which occured in the early/mid 20th century.

I don't so much begrudge Mickelson himself for making $60M/$16M, though I can't say I cry myself to sleep if he only ends up with the latter, but rather, are we in some Neo Gilded Age and headed for another period of great socialand political unrest as a consequence.

At which point of wealth concentration, or is there any point, does income/wealth disparity become to a society overall? Are we approaching, at or beyond that point? What might that point be (if there is any): 50% of our societies wealth is possessed by the top 25%? The top 10%? The top 1%?The top .001%? I think our society is now at the top 1% level at least.
I was suggesting that when you encounter someone who makes less money than yourself, you do not distribute a portion your money to them to help them along.

I appreciate the in depth reply but in a nutshell, you are scared of capitalism.

So we tax at higher rates because the government spends to much and they need the revenues or is it to keep the wealthier in check? From your logic, why not implement a salary cap?
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:36 PM   #66
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Most of us are middle-class types, and we want our money back.
Go after the government.
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Originally Posted by SonicBoom
Europeans are stoopid. They keep splitting countries, while being jealous of our powa. Of course the EU is good for them, but does that have any real power?

Not even mentioning the efficiencies of larger countries.

As divided as this country is, at least we are one.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:08 AM   #67
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I was suggesting that when you encounter someone who makes less money than yourself, you do not distribute a portion your money to them to help them along.

I appreciate the in depth reply but in a nutshell, you are scared of capitalism.

So we tax at higher rates because the government spends to much and they need the revenues or is it to keep the wealthier in check? From your logic, why not implement a salary cap?
Indeed I do, through the taxes I pay to our county's Constitutionally established, democratically elected representative governments. That, and through various charities too, both being important avenues to support and strengthen our society and fellow citizens.

I'm certainly not scared of capitalism but consider it the very heart of our economic engine. That said though, I do think there is, too, a vital and parallel roles for our government in appropriately regulating and modulating that capitalism to assure the free market does not degenerate into a free-for-all market subject to exploitation, dangerous instability and a threat to other broader aspects of our society.

Whether we, through our government, spend to much certainly is a debatable point (and often and vigorously is), but our tax rates are at a fairly low point, historically, especially for higher income brackets and also relative to other advanced industrialized societies.

As for the contention that higher rates are to "keep the wealthier in check," I think I would see it as not so much that but rather, that the benefits of our society are a bit more broadly shared for the overall benefit, stability and sustainability of our society over the long term. More progressive tax rates might be a component of that overall goal, but only that.

Better would be that the benefits of our economy and society were more broadly shared in the first place to (re)create a much broader, robust and vigorous middle class that I think is the greatest guarantor of our long term viability as a nation. At present, we seems to be devolving towards a more third-world situation of a small but extremely wealthy elite presiding over a very large and stagnant (our vaunted social mobility is now lower than many/most European countries) lower class with a somewhat small and nominal middle class in between. We all know how stable and enduring such third world countries tend to be.

This is by no means to argue a full swing to full-on socialism from full-on laisez faire capitalism, but rather, a more complex, sophisticated and mixed model somewhere in between that actually has been the character of the American economy and society from the beginning.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:27 PM   #68
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Bush had nothing to do with the real estate collapse.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:29 PM   #69
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Barney Frank?
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Originally Posted by SonicBoom
Europeans are stoopid. They keep splitting countries, while being jealous of our powa. Of course the EU is good for them, but does that have any real power?

Not even mentioning the efficiencies of larger countries.

As divided as this country is, at least we are one.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:54 PM   #70
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Yeah, Barney passed Dubya's 2003 free down payment act that led to the collapse of the housing/mortgage industry. Do a little reading on Bush's American Dream Downpayment Assistance Act, and then come back and point fingers at Barney Frank.

Quote:
American Dream Downpayment Act: Fiscally Irresponsible andRedundant to Existing Homeownership Programs
By Ronald D. Utt, Ph.D. December 5, 2003

Early next week, the House of Representatives has one last opportunity to demonstrate that the first session of the 108th Congress was not marked exclusively by wanton profligacy and wasteful spending.

That chance will arise when the House is asked to approve by unanimous consent the American Dream Downpayment Act -- a bill that would require the U. S. taxpayers to provide $200 million per year to fund cash grants of as much as $10,000 to individuals and families wanting to buy a house, but without subjecting themselves to the burden of having to save for the downpayment.

Although encouraging home ownership is a useful policy goal from a variety of perspectives, policies to promote it should be ones that create opportunity and encourage individuals to save, not seek handouts.

Wasteful & Extravagant

At a time when the American homeownership rate is the highest in history, and when there already exist less costly federal programs -- operated by the Federal Housing Administration (FHA) -- to assist lower-income/savings-impaired families to buy a house, the American Dream Downpayment Act is a wasteful and counter-productive extravagance.


Moreover, if HUD's sordid history is any guide, this program could end up costing much more than the $200 million per year in outlays authorized by the bill. The last time HUD attempted an expansive no-downpayment/modest-income homeownership program was in the late 1960s and early 1970s with the infamous Section 235 program.


Among the many HUD disasters that characterize that department, the Section 235 program was one of the grandest. Exceptionally high default rates; property abandonment and costly foreclosures led to budget outlays well in excess of whatever the amount of subsidies provided buyers.


These losses were largely a consequence of diminished recoveries through foreclosure that were less than the dollar amount of the outstanding mortgage. Since FHA insured these mortgages -- as they would most likely do under the Downpayment Act -- the federal government was ultimately financially responsible for these losses as well.
http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...rship-programs
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:07 PM   #71
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it will always be that way in a free society, some people are simply better at it than others. Just as people are free to soar, they are also free to squander.

Go look at all thoe "equal" socialist countries and compare the wealth inequality between the socialist ruling class and the people.
Liberals take the "all men are created equal" seriously. They actually think that those with a PhD and those that dropped out of highschool should have the same opportunity and should get the same "fair shot."

Never in a MILLION years could Stalin imagine American's being this dumb.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:12 PM   #72
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Liberals take the "all men are created equal" seriously. They actually think that those with a PhD and those that dropped out of highschool should have the same opportunity and should get the same "fair shot."

Never in a MILLION years could Stalin imagine American's being this dumb.
You really are a fascist, aren't you?
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:20 PM   #73
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You really are a fascist, aren't you?
just a low information individual.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:52 PM   #74
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You really are a fascist, aren't you?
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just a low information individual.
Great for you guys...because insults are a sign of a logical being.
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Originally Posted by SonicBoom
Europeans are stoopid. They keep splitting countries, while being jealous of our powa. Of course the EU is good for them, but does that have any real power?

Not even mentioning the efficiencies of larger countries.

As divided as this country is, at least we are one.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:55 PM   #75
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I dont even take those two trolls seriously. The libtards and the government will continue to spend/attempt to "equalize" the people...while those with brains are just going to park/hide their money elsewhere, making those on the bottom even poorer, and those on the top even richer. Look at Russia. There is no grey area. It's either filthy rich or dirt poor. There is no middle ground....but it's cool though...Lair and badfast read some books...they know how the world works.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:41 PM   #76
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I dont even take those two trolls seriously. The libtards and the government will continue to spend/attempt to "equalize" the people...while those with brains are just going to park/hide their money elsewhere, making those on the bottom even poorer, and those on the top even richer. Look at Russia. There is no grey area. It's either filthy rich or dirt poor. There is no middle ground....but it's cool though...Lair and badfast read some books...they know how the world works.
some! I read alot, don't try and diminish my accomplishments!
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:05 PM   #77
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Great for you guys...because insults are a sign of a logical being.
How would you describe this load of horseshlt?

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Liberals take the "all men are created equal" seriously.
We are all created equal - even the coporate whores who can't spit the CEO's cack out long enough to see that they're low man on the company pole.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:11 PM   #78
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Great for you guys...because insults are a sign of a logical being.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:56 AM   #79
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Poor man, struggling along on but $18 million a year, please give me a moment to daub the tears from my eyes.

Someone really needs to start a new meme: "1%ers Problems."

In truth, this guy needs to fire his accountant if the fool can't avail himself of all the obscure tax dodges, shelters, havens and loopholes to pay a more Romney'esque 15%.
Agreed. If he and his accountant can't figure out how to take more home than 18 million that's his problem. Or....maybe his accountant his robbing him blind.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:45 AM   #80
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Ok, myth busted:

http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/23/news...html?iid=HP_LN

I'd love to know as well, Phil's math behind the 62% tax rate..
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