E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Political Talk

Political Talk
You may discuss anything regarding politics in this forum ONLY. If you cannot respect others opinions, your access to this forum will be removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-24-2013, 01:52 PM   #21
joeski3d
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 520
My Ride: 2000 323i
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5ynd1cat3 View Post
Algeria was a terrorist attack on a privately held company that killed hostages from 4 different countries.

Benghazi was a terrorist attack on a US diplomatic post with strictly American casualties. Pretty substantial difference.
Americans are Americans. A terrorist attack is a terrorist attack. Dead is dead. The only difference here is the political climate during the two instances.
__________________

Ballbusters Inc.

DISCLAIMER: No balls were physically hurt during the reading of this post. Should redness and/or swelling occur consult your gynecologist immediately.
joeski3d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 02:01 PM   #22
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: Beach Cruiser
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeski3d View Post
Americans are Americans. A terrorist attack is a terrorist attack. Dead is dead. The only difference here is the political climate during the two instances.
You're thinking in an extremely shallow manner. This is more than "bang bang, die die, over there", the issue has always been that our own government sent out its big dogs to tell the world for a week that this was because of some loser's youtube video when in fact it was a terrorist attack.

They knew what it was within the hour, they chose to send out a different story. That is the issue. Why you would accept something like this (or anyone) is nonsensical.
__________________
“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin

"You don’t burn books because they’re irrelevant. You burn books because you’re terrified that they’re not. You don’t muzzle people who have no audience. You muzzle people only when their voices are amplified far beyond your liking."
Act of God is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 02:02 PM   #23
casino is no lie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CDT
Posts: 76
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000_328CI View Post
What difference? Seriously?

What difference would it make it our government DIDN'T lie to us?

An immense difference. If the administration had been honest from the get-go, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead they lied to the American people in hopes of skating by the issue and making it a non-issue for Obama's reelection campaign. But when you come from Chicago politics, I suppose honesty isn't top of mind.
I knew that the embassy had been breached and that four individuals were killed. I don't need a politician to reassure me that it was a terrorist attack to know a hostile incident took place where the members of the embassy were targeted.

It only makes a difference to individuals that incessantly require everything to be categorized into neat labels for easier understanding. You wouldn't happen to know anyone like that... would you?
__________________
casino is no lie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 02:10 PM   #24
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: Beach Cruiser
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by casino is no lie View Post
I knew that the embassy had been breached and that four individuals were killed. I don't need a politician to reassure me that it was a terrorist attack to know a hostile incident took place where the members of the embassy were targeted.

It only makes a difference to individuals that incessantly require everything to be categorized into neat labels for easier understanding. You wouldn't happen to know anyone like that... would you?
lol are you this dishonest with yourself or are you just trolling right now?
__________________
“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin

"You don’t burn books because they’re irrelevant. You burn books because you’re terrified that they’re not. You don’t muzzle people who have no audience. You muzzle people only when their voices are amplified far beyond your liking."
Act of God is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 02:23 PM   #25
joeski3d
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 520
My Ride: 2000 323i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
You're thinking in an extremely shallow manner. This is more than "bang bang, die die, over there", the issue has always been that our own government sent out its big dogs to tell the world for a week that this was because of some loser's youtube video when in fact it was a terrorist attack.

They knew what it was within the hour, they chose to send out a different story. That is the issue. Why you would accept something like this (or anyone) is nonsensical.
I disagree. I'm boiling it down to it's essentials. You keep trying to build it up into something more. And what about all the ambassador deaths and attempted killings during the previous administration? Why is it worse when Obama is president? Oh... right... because it was those other big dogs talking about it.
__________________

Ballbusters Inc.

DISCLAIMER: No balls were physically hurt during the reading of this post. Should redness and/or swelling occur consult your gynecologist immediately.
joeski3d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 02:47 PM   #26
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: Beach Cruiser
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeski3d View Post
I disagree. I'm boiling it down to it's essentials. You keep trying to build it up into something more. And what about all the ambassador deaths and attempted killings during the previous administration? Why is it worse when Obama is president? Oh... right... because it was those other big dogs talking about it.
I'm not concerned with what happened, tragic as it is, I am concerned with our government selecting to lie to the American people so as not to jeopardize an upcoming election.

Do you think an electrion justifies our government lying to us? I understand that they lie to us every day, but in this instance they are caught lying. Shouldn't that be considered outrageous behavior or do you just accept it at this point.

If you do, doesn't that just exemplify how sad things have become? This is our government, they govern with the consent of the governed. No one consents to them trotting out made up stories to make sure they can win elections...unless you do?
__________________
“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin

"You don’t burn books because they’re irrelevant. You burn books because you’re terrified that they’re not. You don’t muzzle people who have no audience. You muzzle people only when their voices are amplified far beyond your liking."
Act of God is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 02:49 PM   #27
///Mpower3357
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 114
My Ride: 00' 323i
We all need to hold our govt accountable. Its ignorant to say 'what difference does it make', about anything. Lets all stick together and agree that we want the tyrants removed from govt, or our founding fathers' hard work was for not.

Sent using Bimmer Ap
///Mpower3357 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 02:50 PM   #28
///Mpower3357
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 114
My Ride: 00' 323i
infowars.com for REAL INFO. :-)
///Mpower3357 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 02:57 PM   #29
casino is no lie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CDT
Posts: 76
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
lol are you this dishonest with yourself or are you just trolling right now?
What part of what I wrote is dishonest?
__________________
casino is no lie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 03:06 PM   #30
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: Beach Cruiser
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by casino is no lie View Post
What part of what I wrote is dishonest?
Your dishonesty is in your cavalier dismissal of an intentional and promoted government lie. I understand you are from Chicago and you are a party cheerleader, but I also expect a higher standard of honesty from you based on your posting history. This was a lie that they got caught on, there's no way around it.

We don't have a ministry of disinformation, our government has an obligation to tell the people the truth (unlike our media).
__________________
“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin

"You don’t burn books because they’re irrelevant. You burn books because you’re terrified that they’re not. You don’t muzzle people who have no audience. You muzzle people only when their voices are amplified far beyond your liking."
Act of God is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 03:16 PM   #31
casino is no lie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CDT
Posts: 76
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
Your dishonesty is in your cavalier dismissal of an intentional and promoted government lie. I understand you are from Chicago and you are a party cheerleader, but I also expect a higher standard of honesty from you based on your posting history. This was a lie that they got caught on, there's no way around it.

We don't have a ministry of disinformation, our government has an obligation to tell the people the truth (unlike our media).
And what exactly was the big lie?
__________________
casino is no lie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 03:22 PM   #32
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: Beach Cruiser
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by casino is no lie View Post
And what exactly was the big lie?
That this was the result of an intolerant youtube video, that it was a spontaneous event. Remember all the white house big dogs being sent out on all the sunday talk shows and the subsequent week pushing that story? Remember Obama giving a speech about religious tolerance? Remember our government arresting the guy who made the video right after?

I do
__________________
“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin

"You don’t burn books because they’re irrelevant. You burn books because you’re terrified that they’re not. You don’t muzzle people who have no audience. You muzzle people only when their voices are amplified far beyond your liking."
Act of God is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 03:24 PM   #33
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 581
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mpower3357 View Post
We all need to hold our govt accountable. Its ignorant to say 'what difference does it make', about anything. Lets all stick together and agree that we want the tyrants removed from govt, or our founding fathers' hard work was for not.

Sent using Bimmer Ap
Tyrants...yes.

Stalin -USSR
Hitler - Germany
Pinochet - Chilie
The Kim Dynasty - North Korea
Pol Pot - Cambodia
Idi Amin - Uganda
Than Shwe - Burma
Mao - China
Mugabe - Zimbabwe
Barack Obama - United States of America
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 03:42 PM   #34
casino is no lie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CDT
Posts: 76
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
That this was the result of an intolerant youtube video, that it was a spontaneous event. Remember all the white house big dogs being sent out on all the sunday talk shows and the subsequent week pushing that story? Remember Obama giving a speech about religious tolerance? Remember our government arresting the guy who made the video right after?

I do
I think I have determined the problem. I took the incident seriously from the start where as you didn't give a **** until it became a "terrorist" incident.

The fact that is was spontaneous or premeditate does nothing to diminish the gravity of what took place. Apparently in your eyes it does.

I don't need a politician telling me it was a "terrorist" attack. You don't force your way into a US Embassy in an area of the world where Americans are not well received to have crumpets and tea with embassy personnel and "spontaneously" decide to kill them.

Obama himself called it an act of terror. What did you expect to happen... get an invite to Washington for an intelligence debrief?
__________________
casino is no lie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 03:49 PM   #35
kaput
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Carlisle, PA
Posts: 748
My Ride: 2002 M3 SMG
Send a message via AIM to kaput
It has nothing to do with it being an "act of terror". Technically, a mob storming the gates and killing people is an act of terror too.

The story was that a protest was going on based on a video, and the protestors broke in and killed US citizens.

The real story is it was a calculated terrorist attack on the embassy, by a group we have been watching and fighting with, on the anniversary of the worst terrorist attack, where added security was requested, and denied.

We all took the situation seriously, everyone except the government. They decided to allow the press and those talking to them to call this a protest, and an unfortunate incident. They blamed religious intolerance, and arrested a guy who made a video. The problem was blaming the video, and a protest. The problem was not using a little tact when addressing the press. If the administration came out and said "we don't know, but we are going to find out what happened. Give us some time, and we will bring them to justice" and then said it was a coordinated attack, nothing more about this would be heard.

The fact that they lied is the problem. It is naive to think they don't lie everyday to the population, but to ignore it makes the problem worse.
__________________

2002 M3
kaput is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 03:54 PM   #36
casino is no lie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CDT
Posts: 76
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaput View Post
It has nothing to do with it being an "act of terror". Technically, a mob storming the gates and killing people is an act of terror too.

The story was that a protest was going on based on a video, and the protestors broke in and killed US citizens.

The real story is it was a calculated terrorist attack on the embassy, by a group we have been watching and fighting with, on the anniversary of the worst terrorist attack, where added security was requested, and denied.

We all took the situation seriously, everyone except the government. They decided to allow the press and those talking to them to call this a protest, and an unfortunate incident. They blamed religious intolerance, and arrested a guy who made a video. The problem was blaming the video, and a protest. The problem was not using a little tact when addressing the press. If the administration came out and said "we don't know, but we are going to find out what happened. Give us some time, and we will bring them to justice" and then said it was a coordinated attack, nothing more about this would be heard.

The fact that they lied is the problem. It is naive to think they don't lie everyday to the population, but to ignore it makes the problem worse.
I understand. I appreciate that you, unlike some other members in this forum, actually took the time to clearly articulate why you feel this way.

Perhaps I am simply more desensitized to these types of smoke and mirrors than others.
__________________
casino is no lie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 04:25 PM   #37
MDydinanM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 754
My Ride: is a ///M
In regards to whether the administration was lying or ill-informed, I believe it was the latter. I believe certain officials, namely Susan Rice, spoke per-maturely. Secondly, those "talking points" she received were inaccurate - perhaps (yes - over the course of weeks) information was still developing. Third, people seem to forget that there were indeed mass protests across the Middle East in response to the youtube video that was released that coincided with the Benghazi attack. The attack on Benghazi, and the confusion surrounding it, can be seen as the "fog of war". You will note that pretty much only Susan Rice blamed it on a youtube video. I don't recall Obama saying so, nor did Hillary (But it depends on how you interpret Hilary's comments. And yes, I've read/watched the transcripts (Rose Garden & Hillary's Dover AFB speech and State Dept speech). When people say "the administration" I think it's important to pull that apart and distinguish between individual actions and not cast the finger on everybody.

Kaput & Act of God- you all and I, I believe, have gone round and round on this in this thread:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=949515


Quote:
Originally Posted by mdyaman View Post
From Fox news nonetheless

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...ints-on-libya/



So for all those saying that the Obama administration is/was "lying", this should shed light on the issue that they received their information from the intelligence community that was inaccurate.

It seems now Republicans are shifting their inquires to DNI Director Clapper rather than other Obama administration officials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdyaman View Post
but that's the point...even the conservative news media is saying that blame is shifting.

Here it is again, from CNN

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/1...s-spontaneous/
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...&postcount=540

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdyaman View Post
Well I certainly understand your point of view, but the way I see it (and again, I'm rusty on the situation) is that:

Obama hasn't really said anything other than his Rose Garden speech. I can't find where he said youtube video specifically. Here's his transcript (from Fox news even): http://www.forextv.com/forex-news-st...enghazi-attack Fox news says he mentioned youtube video, but after reading it, I didn't see it. Awkward? Misleading?

Obama also has stated that he would seek justice for those responsible, hence the deployment of Marines, Drones, and other measures.

Susan Rice went around touting the youtube video, which was wrong. However, that was the the initial report she received.



**By administration, they mean Susan Rice.

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/1...s-spontaneous/


Should she have been more prudent and waited? Perhaps, but then again people wanted answers.

I can't even find where Clinton said youtube video, specifically. All I see is her apology. http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/15/us/cli...azi/index.html

In the end, I don't see Obama, himself, having changed his story. It seems he had an administration official (Susan Rice) that spoke too soon and now he's being blamed for her words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdyaman View Post
Yes, there were protests in Egypt, and Sudan, Jordan, Bangladesh, Tunisia, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Bahrain, Qatar, India's Kashmir region, UK, Indonesia, etc.



http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...ast-and-beyond

More on this in a bit.



Whether or not the attacks happened on Sept 11, in my opinion, is irrelevant. An attack is an attack, no matter what date it is. The difference is that Americans assign symbolic meaning to the date of Sept 11. Additionally, 9/11 happened on US soil, whereas Benghazi was overseas. Not trying to downplay the issue here, and yes, I know embassies and consulates are considered US territory, but there's a scalability and proximity difference between the two.

---



I think that is more of an opinion.




I watched all the videos you provided; my take:


1st short video of Hillary, nothing specific was said.

2nd video of Hillary, Hillary speaks about the Ambassador, praises him and those who died, and says, in regards to who's responsible, a small group. She also goes on to say that,


Nothing specifically linking the video to the attack in Benghazi. To me, she was speaking that in general, that the youtube video did, in fact cause violence in the Middle East. That did happen as seen with all the protests.


3rd Video of Hillary
She says video has led to a number of protests in various countries. She did not saying anything linking the video to the attack on the Benghazi consulate.

Again, remember, that when the youtube video was released, it did in fact cause mass protests from Pakistan, to Sudan, Yemen, and elsewhere in the Middle East. I'm sure you remember that. It did provoke some violence, and the embassy in Egypt had protesters scale the walls and burned the American flag.

However, as what FlashTwoSix (yes, i'm crediting her) pointed out, Hillary's speech at Dover AFB can be interpreted as saying the video as responsible.


http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/09/14...ive-in-the-us/

Probably semantics, but it says internet video caused rage and violence directed at American embassies. But that part is true more or less. Like I said, there were protests in the Middle East, She also said, in two separate sentences, a heavy assault on our post in Benghazi, and rage/violence directed at embassies over a video. She appears to make a distinction between the two.

-----------

Susan Rice video . Yes, I agree that Susan Rice touted the youtube video claim. That has been documented as such. However, as I previously pointed out here: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...&postcount=474

She perhaps spoke out too soon. But, it appears she was given the info she had at the time.



http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/1...s-spontaneous/

Now, in regards to those "talking points," there is an article here where it says the following:



http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/1...ity/?hpt=hp_t2

That said, I don't think it's fair to blame Susan Rice, or the Obama Administration if the Intel was watered down.

----

Jake Tapper Video

He says "these protests where in reaction to a video". That is true since the video resulted in mass protests in the Middle East.

In regards to if the video caused the Benghazi attach, he specifically says, "We don't know, but we don't know otherwise...we don't have any info if it was a pre-planned attack...it is under investigation"

I think there, he was being honest about what they knew at that moment in time.


-----

So other than Susan Rice who misspoke, I don't see a real issue on "lying". The media has sensationalized this beyond sensibility, and I see Republican's casting the blame on the entire Administration based off the early assessment provided to Susan Rice that it was from a youtube video - that was based off a faulty assessment from the IC. All the American public hears are the sound bytes and think the term "Obama Administration" is synonymous with everyone, including Obama. That isn't the case so far - not in my opinion.

The real issue, as it seems now, was why were the "talking points" that were provided to Administration officials incorrect/watered down/misleading.

So when you say, Obama didn't deny or support it, of course he didn't. He was probably waiting on a good assessment. It takes time to figure these things out. That's not fact, that's just my opinion.

Also, we you say "his minions" running around, that was really just Susan Rice (and maybe Hillary) who spoke based of bad information she received from the Intel Community (as I referenced/sourced earlier).

Wall Street Journal
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/0...-the-violence/

It says:


The "both" shows a distinction, that one is not the cause of the other. Again, for the last time, the youtube video did cause violence and protests. I know I sound like a broken record for saying that. But I hope you can see the distinction.


----

In my opinion, the more you break this thing down, who said what, when and why, the Republican rhetoric falls apart. Was this a tragedy? Absolutely. Could things have been handled differently? Sure. But until we know all the ins and outs, what decisions were made (or not made) and what level that decision resided at, then perhaps we'll know who's truly to blame.


Last edited by MDydinanM; 01-24-2013 at 04:32 PM.
MDydinanM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 04:41 PM   #38
5ynd1cat3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 498
My Ride: swagger wagon
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeski3d View Post
Americans are Americans. A terrorist attack is a terrorist attack. Dead is dead. The only difference here is the political climate during the two instances.
C'mon Joe, you're better than that. Using your logic, there would be no difference between the FALN bombing in Manhattan and the Rome/Vienna bombings.

Benghazi and Algeria are related. Some of the militants that were at the Benghazi attack have been placed at the Algeria attack. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/wo...azi.html?_r=1&
__________________

Last edited by 5ynd1cat3; 01-24-2013 at 05:09 PM.
5ynd1cat3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 04:43 PM   #39
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: Beach Cruiser
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by casino is no lie View Post
I understand. I appreciate that you, unlike some other members in this forum, actually took the time to clearly articulate why you feel this way.

Perhaps I am simply more desensitized to these types of smoke and mirrors than others.
I said the same exact thing brosephus
__________________
“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin

"You don’t burn books because they’re irrelevant. You burn books because you’re terrified that they’re not. You don’t muzzle people who have no audience. You muzzle people only when their voices are amplified far beyond your liking."
Act of God is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 05:26 PM   #40
Lair
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sea level
Posts: 321
My Ride: e90, cheap Boxster
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaput View Post
The fact that they lied is the problem.
Good luck proving that they lied.
__________________

Quote:
It's the best years of your life they want to steal.
Congratulations.
Lair is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use