E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Political Talk

Political Talk
You may discuss anything regarding politics in this forum ONLY. If you cannot respect others opinions, your access to this forum will be removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-31-2013, 02:50 PM   #81
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 919
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
Far, far more lethal and far, far more easily (heat of the moment, etc.).

Smaller magazines, banned ammo types, restrict especially lethal weapons like we have with fully automatic machine guns...yes, that's a good discussion to have. Might work, might not, or maybe work a bit, but the discussion itself shouldn't be quashed.

I don't think they generally do and I'll be the first to say that the fixation on assault weapons is mostly symbolic, aesthetic and highly distractionary from the real questions regarding guns.
So you are ok with laws being passed for symbolism? Surely not...
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 03:01 PM   #82
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,641
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
Far, far more lethal and far, far more easily (heat of the moment, etc.).

Smaller magazines, banned ammo types, restrict especially lethal weapons like we have with fully automatic machine guns...yes, that's a good discussion to have. Might work, might not, or maybe work a bit, but the discussion itself shouldn't be quashed.

I don't think they generally do and I'll be the first to say that the fixation on assault weapons is mostly symbolic, aesthetic and highly distractionary from the real questions regarding guns.
What ammo would you want to ban that is "more lethal"?

Cop killers? Dum dums? Anything over .45 inches in bullet diameter?

Ban .50 cal? Introduce 14.1mm ammo.

Large magazines? Quickly swapping magazines is essential in combat. I can take all day to reload if I'm gunning down unarmed people cowering in corners. I'll carry as much ammo as I can, regardless of whether its in two magazines or six.
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 03:25 PM   #83
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
although these are so called "gun crimes" I do not believe it is guns that are the problem.
OK, people are the problem. So lets kill all the people, problem solved.
And we can start with the gun owners. They are a bunch of pu$$ies anyway.
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 03:27 PM   #84
choxor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,562
My Ride: JDM
Eh, first it's gun laws are too lax in surrounding areas. Then it'll be surrounding states then surrounding countries. Keep placing the blame on the guns and chasing that chain of reasoning to infinity, all the while ignoring the root cause of the issue. It's easy to pass ineffective laws that make people feel all warm and fuzzy while ignoring why the violence happens in the first place. It's more difficult to address the real problems. Politicians are more than happy to take the easy route. People will applaud the new laws and how safe it makes them feel all the while the criminals aren't phased at all.

They'll always have weapons. Don't ever doubt that. Cocaine's outlawed, among other things, and they don't seem to have a problem smuggling that into the country. It's an arms race amongst gangs. Do you think they give a **** about what laws are passed? No. But I tell you what. They sure will enjoy the new workplace safety when they break into a house.
__________________
choxor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 03:28 PM   #85
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 919
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdsesq View Post
OK, people are the problem. So lets kill all the people, problem solved.
And we can start with the gun owners. They are a bunch of pu$$ies anyway.
And this is why nothing will get done. The only legislation that passes is kneejerk-feel good legislation, which is designed for getting votes, not stopping crime.
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 03:29 PM   #86
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
So you are ok with laws being passed for symbolism? Surely not...
And Jim Crow and DOMA laws were/aren't symbolic? Drug laws aren't symbolic? RICO laws aren't symbolic? Equal pay for equal work laws aren't symbolic? Civil rights laws aren't symbolic? Late term abortion ban laws aren't symbolic?

Get real. Most of the laws this country passes are symbolic.
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 03:31 PM   #87
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
And this is why nothing will get done. The only legislation that passes is kneejerk-feel good legislation, which is designed for getting votes, not stopping crime.
And? Your point would be? Do you think RICO, or anti-prostitution, or drug or DOMA, or fill_in_the_blank laws are any different?

Laws define society, rightly or wrongly, "good" laws or "bad" laws.

When was the last time somebody passed feel-bad legislation?
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes

Last edited by rdsesq; 01-31-2013 at 03:32 PM.
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 03:31 PM   #88
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 919
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
So you support them? You support that fact? You think they make sense?
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 03:32 PM   #89
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,641
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdsesq View Post
OK, people are the problem. So lets kill all the people, problem solved.
And we can start with the gun owners. They are a bunch of pu$$ies anyway.
Your presumption that all people are criminals is unusually ... presumptive
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 03:35 PM   #90
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by choxor View Post
They sure will enjoy the new workplace safety when they break into a house.
Its one way to stop the rampant consumer debt and focus people on saving more.
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 03:36 PM   #91
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
Your presumption that all people are criminals is unusually ... presumptive
Have you never broken the law? You never speed or jaywalk or spit on the sidewalk? Bull cookies. You have broken the law. It might be a "little" law, but that still makes you a criminal.
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 03:38 PM   #92
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,641
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdsesq View Post
Have you never broken the law? You never speed or jaywalk or spit on the sidewalk? Bull cookies. You have broken the law. It might be a "little" law, but that still makes you a criminal.
So apparently the death penalty is the answer to all crimes?

Or maybe if there were more laws, people wouldn't break them.

Ooh, I know! More police is the answer!
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 02:50 PM   #93
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 108
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
So you are ok with laws being passed for symbolism? Surely not...
No, which is why I wish there wasn't so much focus on assualt rifles but rather on guns, regulations and laws that might actually have a more significant real world impact.
Rhumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 02:53 PM   #94
choxor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,562
My Ride: JDM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
No, which is why I wish there wasn't so much focus on assualt rifles but rather on guns, regulations and laws that might actually have a more significant real world impact.
Or instead of focusing so much energy on guns you could focus energy on why people are killing each other each other. Just a thought.
__________________
choxor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 03:12 PM   #95
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 108
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
What ammo would you want to ban that is "more lethal"?

Cop killers? Dum dums? Anything over .45 inches in bullet diameter?

Ban .50 cal? Introduce 14.1mm ammo.

Large magazines? Quickly swapping magazines is essential in combat. I can take all day to reload if I'm gunning down unarmed people cowering in corners. I'll carry as much ammo as I can, regardless of whether its in two magazines or six.
Perhaps some of these. Bear in mind, it would only be moving the line a bit as large caliper weapons are already illegal (try buying a 30mm antiaircraft gun and ammo). Armor piercing ammo might be another area of scrutiny as I don't know of too many armor wearing deer.

Of course, none of this would make guns and ammo absolutely safe but that isn't the point -- nobody's proposing panaceas. It is only to reduce in the real world the extraordinarily high levels of gun related violence, injury and death in our country. You could still kill somebody with a lady's revolver popping out .22 shorts, but that would be far less likely than somebody blazing away with an AR-15.

If these various measures even reduced gun-related deaths by a measly 10%, that would still save more lives than were lost in 9/11.
Rhumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 03:13 PM   #96
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 108
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by choxor View Post
Or instead of focusing so much energy on guns you could focus energy on why people are killing each other each other. Just a thought.
Or better yet, both.
Rhumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 03:18 PM   #97
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 108
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
So apparently the death penalty is the answer to all crimes?

Or maybe if there were more laws, people wouldn't break them.

Ooh, I know! More police is the answer!
Maybe, maybe not, but I'm pretty sure more guns is not the answer:

Rhumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 03:31 PM   #98
choxor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,562
My Ride: JDM
Man, Wyoming must be one dangerous place.

But hey, suicide's aren't counted in that chart, right?
__________________

Last edited by choxor; 02-01-2013 at 03:42 PM.
choxor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 03:43 PM   #99
Zell
Registered User
 
Zell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: wow such city
Posts: 5,788
My Ride: Has no throttle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
Maybe, maybe not, but I'm pretty sure more guns is not the answer:

There have to be a hell of a lot more variables to take into consideration than just "% Gun Ownership" and "Deaths" per 100,000 people.

I've never seen a model that has one variable that can actually accurately predict things.

People that can't do stats.
__________________
Zell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 04:18 PM   #100
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 108
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Perhaps the chart could be further refined, but I'd say that it is on far firmer empirical footing than the NRA's, and others, abstract, ideological but baseless assertion that more guns will make us safer. Nothing I have ever seen comes close to substantiating that assertion. Rather, across a wide range of available measures of gun ownership rates vs. gun violence/crime shows very much the opposite effect.

As for other variables, perhaps this chart might flesh that out a touch:


Or perhaps this for more geographic correlation:
The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state. It highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place - assault weapons' bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements.

Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).

While the causes of individual acts of mass violence always differ, our analysis shows fatal gun violence is less likely to occur in richer states with more post-industrial knowledge economies, higher levels of college graduates, and tighter gun laws. Factors like drug use, stress levels, and mental illness are much less significant than might be assumed.

Last edited by Rhumb; 02-01-2013 at 04:21 PM.
Rhumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use