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Old 02-03-2013, 08:52 PM   #81
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What does "I would have cleared leather" mean?
I wouldn't draw in this situation. I would only ever draw if I was going to shoot and I would sure as hell not shoot this guy just for what he said.
Cleared leather means removed from holster.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:53 PM   #82
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Well if you own a gun let alone carry one and don't know what position 2 of a draw looks like...
Your posts about guns being a solution to everything make me feel like I'm going to get shot just for sneezing in public. This is coming from someone who likes guns.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:55 PM   #83
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Well if you own a gun let alone carry one and don't know what position 2 of a draw looks like...
His and my point is that drawing the gun in this situation is "inappropriate". At least that's my opinion. And yes, I do own a gun (in fact I love my gun). I just believe in not escalating confrontations and sometimes pulling a gun can heighten the situation. Obviously just revealing the holster or unbuckling it is fine IMO, but to pull out your gun and draw on him when he said "you've got 20 seconds to run" is preemptive and in many states, illegal. Again, I've got no problem (an would probably myself) unhook my buckle on the holster/reveal that I have a firearm, but I would never have drawn in THIS situation.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:56 PM   #84
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Cleared leather means removed from holster.
Thanks for answering.
Isn't the general rule of thumb to never draw unless you plan to fire though?
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:56 PM   #85
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What would you have done? Shot him in his face, taken your phone, and walked away?
Thats not how it works. You draw your gun because you were threatened, are in fear for your life, and were robbed. You then instruct the offender to lay down on the ground. You then have a split path the events will unfold.....

1) Offender obeys, you call the police, keep holding him at gunpoint until police arrive, explain the situation and then retrieve your property.

1.5) You can choose to retrieve your property and leave, but then it might look like YOU robbed the guy and bystanders may have called the police on YOU, given them your plate number, etc, and when you get home you have a rough evening ahead of you.

or

2) The offender does not comply. The offender tries to hit you, assault you, etc, at which point the physical danger is present, the threat that made you fear for your life has manifested itself, you are then within the real of a self defense shoot. You do not shoot to get your cellphone back. You are allowed to shoot if the offender tries to assault you.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:58 PM   #86
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Your posts about guns being a solution to everything make me feel like I'm going to get shot just for sneezing in public. This is coming from someone who likes guns.
Is liking guns kinda like having a black friend before telling an offhand joke?
Lol

Not a solution for everything, your words not mine.
When someone verbalizes a threat directly towards me,
Then yes... It's appropriate

In this thread alone, you have several firearms owners, a lawyer and a cop all agreeing
on that
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:58 PM   #87
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Thats not how it works. You draw your gun because you were threatened, are in fear for your life, and were robbed. You then instruct the offender to lay down on the ground. You then have a split path the events will unfold.....

1) Offender obeys, you call the police, keep holding him at gunpoint until police arrive, explain the situation and then retrieve your property.

1.5) You can choose to retrieve your property and leave, but then it might look like YOU robbed the guy and bystanders may have called the police on YOU, given them your plate number, etc, and when you get home you have a rough evening ahead of you.

or

2) The offender does not comply. The offender tries to hit you, assault you, etc, at which point the physical danger is present, the threat that made you fear for your life has manifested itself, you are then within the real of a self defense shoot. You do not shoot to get your cellphone back. You are allowed to shoot if the offender tries to assault you.
So what if you draw your gun and tell him to lay on the ground. The guy says no, makes no physical or verbal advance towards you and just drives or walks away?
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:59 PM   #88
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Thanks for answering.
Isn't the general rule of thumb to never draw unless you plan to fire though?
Not really IMHO. Many instances of drawn firearms often end in perps backing down. For instance, you are walking home to your house. Someone is following you. You walk faster. They speed up. You walk up your driveway, they start walking up your driveway after you...you draw, they run. Happens all the time. Brandishing is flashing your firearm for acting tough, or in a situation that does not pose a threat of crime/bodily harm.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:00 PM   #89
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So what if you draw your gun and tell him to lay on the ground. The guy says no, makes no physical or verbal advance towards you and just drives or walks away?
Then you reholster, call the police, and give them as much info as you can.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:01 PM   #90
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Your posts about guns being a solution to everything make me feel like I'm going to get shot just for sneezing in public. This is coming from someone who likes guns.
Just a small note...liking guns, or even being ZOMG awesome at the range...is NOTHING like carrying a weapon for protection.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:04 PM   #91
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Is liking guns kinda like having a black friend before telling an offhand joke?
Lol

Not a solution for everything, your words not mine.
When someone verbalizes a threat directly towards me,
Then yes... It's appropriate

In this thread alone, you have several firearms owners, a lawyer and a cop all agreeing
on that
and what if I'm black and live in east oakland?
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:04 PM   #92
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His and my point is that drawing the gun in this situation is "inappropriate". At least that's my opinion. And yes, I do own a gun (in fact I love my gun). I just believe in not escalating confrontations and sometimes pulling a gun can heighten the situation. Obviously just revealing the holster or unbuckling it is fine IMO, but to pull out your gun and draw on him when he said "you've got 20 seconds to run" is preemptive and in many states, illegal. Again, I've got no problem (an would probably myself) unhook my buckle on the holster/reveal that I have a firearm, but I would never have drawn in THIS situation.
And this is EXACTLY why people should take carrying advice from people that know about carrying. With this type of behavior, you will likely end up in jail. That, is brandishing a firearm. You obviously feel no threat (or else you would draw) so all you are doing is exactly that...trying to show testicular fortitude of your weapon...which is a BIG no no.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:08 PM   #93
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And this is EXACTLY why people should take carrying advice from people that know about carrying. With this type of behavior, you will likely end up in jail. That, is brandishing a firearm. You obviously feel no threat (or else you would draw) so all you are doing is exactly that...trying to show testicular fortitude of your weapon...which is a BIG no no.
Revealing a holstered weapon in NC is not brandishing a firearm. Unbuckling is NOT unholstering...did you think I meant otherwise?
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:11 PM   #94
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Thats not how it works. You draw your gun because you were threatened, are in fear for your life, and were robbed. You then instruct the offender to lay down on the ground. You then have a split path the events will unfold.....

1) Offender obeys, you call the police, keep holding him at gunpoint until police arrive, explain the situation and then retrieve your property.

1.5) You can choose to retrieve your property and leave, but then it might look like YOU robbed the guy and bystanders may have called the police on YOU, given them your plate number, etc, and when you get home you have a rough evening ahead of you.

or

2) The offender does not comply. The offender tries to hit you, assault you, etc, at which point the physical danger is present, the threat that made you fear for your life has manifested itself, you are then within the real of a self defense shoot. You do not shoot to get your cellphone back. You are allowed to shoot if the offender tries to assault you.
Actually, you are only allowed to shoot (which is deadly force) when you are threatened with deadly force. If you are threatened with fists, it's going to be a hard argument to a jury to make that you were threatened with deadly force just with fists.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:15 PM   #95
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Revealing a holstered weapon in NC is not brandishing a firearm. Unbuckling is NOT unholstering...did you think I meant otherwise?
Yes it is.... If I come over to you and say "hey buddy, thats a sweet e46 man, I have one too. Hey do you like guns? Im looking to buy one. What do you have?" If you open your jacket and I see it, this is not brandishing. However, if you cut me off or stole my parking space, both of us get out of our cars and start a heated yelling match, at which point you open your jacket for the SOLE PURPOSE of me seeing your firearm and backing down, you have just brandished your firearm...you make your firearm visible for the purposes of intimidation. Walking around with your gun visible is considered open carry, and may or may not be allowed in your state (I believe it is in NC, but Im not 100%.)
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:15 PM   #96
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Revealing a holstered weapon in NC is not brandishing a firearm. Unbuckling is NOT unholstering...did you think I meant otherwise?
nor is it in PA. Actually, no such law as brandishing even exists.

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Actually, you are only allowed to shoot (which is deadly force) when you are threatened with deadly force. If you are threatened with fists, it's going to be a hard argument to a jury to make that you were threatened with deadly force just with fists.
Threatened with deadly force is not the only reason. Could be rape, kidnapping, bodily harm or even simply being in my home.

As far as "just fists"... Disparity of force comes into play not to mention more fists kill more people every year than all shotguns and rifles combined
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:17 PM   #97
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Actually, you are only allowed to shoot (which is deadly force) when you are threatened with deadly force. If you are threatened with fists, it's going to be a hard argument to a jury to make that you were threatened with deadly force just with fists.
Wrong again. Your argument means that you would actually need to take a beating first, so you can assess if the situation is life-threatening. You dont know if he is just going to give you a charlie horse or beat your face in to the point of brain damage. When the physical threat is made, and you REASONABLY fear for your life, you are in the realm of a self defense shoot.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:20 PM   #98
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nor is it in PA. Actually, no such law as brandishing even exists.



Threatened with deadly force is not the only reason. Could be rape, kidnapping, bodily harm or even simply being in my home.

As far as "just fists"... Disparity of force comes into play not to mention more fists kill more people every year than all shotguns and rifles combined
I have been told that in PA that although there is no brandishing law, if you draw without justification, you can be charged with Simple Assault and Terroristic Threats....troof?
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:22 PM   #99
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I have been told that in PA that although there is no brandishing law, if you draw without justification, you can be charged with Simple Assault and Terroristic Threats....troof?
Those two are up there with "disorderly conduct"
Blanket charges for anything
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:23 PM   #100
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Oh, and from what I understand, even if the state doesn't have a brandishing law, you can still be charged with a slew of other offenses (although they will not be called brandishing.)
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