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Old 02-05-2013, 05:45 PM   #21
5ynd1cat3
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So terrorism is a criminal act and not an act of war?
I would say both. Definitely criminal, but wouldn't you need to identify the country that the terrorist is associated with and respond?

I think it's kind of creepy that just because someone in a supposedly high level position has a hunch that you might be a threat to the US that you could just be snuffed out like that with no due process that's supposed to be constitutionally guaranteed.

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Old 02-05-2013, 05:47 PM   #22
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This constant one-upping and hypocrisy-pointing-out exhibitions do absolutely nothing to enhance political discourse. Nobody is seriously challenging the executive branch when it comes to authorized killings of Americans with ties to terrorists who travel overseas. The public doesn't care about it and neither do the Republicans in Congress. Give it a rest. Pointing out that the media crucified Bush for lesser "crimes" is just pointless score keeping that makes politics into a game when it should be about getting the right set of policies in place.

Who here actually disagrees with the Obama administration on this particular subject?
Me.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:05 PM   #23
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The issue is, if they are abroad, what are the costs in bringing them home to trial? Send troops over there to possibly get killed? Based on the description/instance that the Obama administration outlines a warranted drone strike, I can't say I disagree with it. On US soil, sure, get them, but abroad? Light em up IMHO.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:15 PM   #24
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The issue is, if they are abroad, what are the costs in bringing them home to trial? Send troops over there to possibly get killed? Based on the description/instance that the Obama administration outlines a warranted drone strike, I can't say I disagree with it. On US soil, sure, get them, but abroad? Light em up IMHO.
Don't you think that might set a pretty dangerous precedent?

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Old 02-05-2013, 06:15 PM   #25
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People like to live that dream that Bush walked into office with clean sheet from Clinton. That's not true. Clinton left with roughly $6 trillion in debt. Bush Left with 8 trillion. Simple math reveals he was responsible for
$2 Trillion.

At the moment, we sit at $16 Trillion.
Republicans will lie about anything, every time.

BushCo ran the national debt up to $11 trillion before he waltzed back to his hole in texas.

Stop lying.
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If you ever want to see what I mean by the arbitrariness of categories, check the situation of polarized politics. The next time a Martian visits earth, try to explain to him to why those who favor allowing capital punishment also oppose the elimination of a fetus in the mother's womb.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:18 PM   #26
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Our criminal justice system and constitution disagree with it. There are plenty of known criminals, we can't just go round them up too. We are innocent until proven guilty, and the burden of proof is on the state. Terrorists are criminals.

I never would have pegged you for someone to casually disregard the constitutional rights of others just because it seems like a good idea. Also, you have to point out the hypocrisy because otherwise you will only have the MSM narrative inundating the people with one-sided BS.
al-Awlaki was given due process. He was tried and found guilty in absentia in a Yemeni court. The Yemeni government declared his life forfeit and authorized the US government to terminate him via Predator strike.

And terrorists are NOT criminals. Jurisprudence on this is pretty clear. And the top lawyers in Justice in both the Bush and Obama Administrations have made it clear that these terrorists can not and will not be held to the same civilian standard that actual criminals are afforded.

If that were the case, many of these terrorists would have their cases before court dismissed because we detained them for a time too long without arraignment to be considered "speedy".

The lawmakers and the candidates and the media can blather all they want on the Constitutional rights of terrorists, but every executive in office has done what was necessary to uphold his oath in office and barring a few symbolic rebukes (Boumediene v Bush being the most prominent), the Federal courts have sided with the executive. This is no exception.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:18 PM   #27
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Only in America would someone bltch because the president kills the enemy.

Apparently republicans prefer lying sack of shlt pvssies from texas who let the real enemy walk while they invade the wrong country.
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If you ever want to see what I mean by the arbitrariness of categories, check the situation of polarized politics. The next time a Martian visits earth, try to explain to him to why those who favor allowing capital punishment also oppose the elimination of a fetus in the mother's womb.
Congratulations.

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Old 02-05-2013, 06:53 PM   #28
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honestly, don't see much wrong with this. Don't want a drone up your a$$, don't be a terrorist.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:59 PM   #29
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Don't you think that might set a pretty dangerous precedent?

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Yes. I understand the possible negative effects, personally accept them, and rather deal with the risk of politicians than risk of crazy Islamist extremists that are citizens. Personal opinion, nothing more. Just like my acceptance of guns...some will fall through the cracks, some will end up in the hands of criminals, but it is a risk I am willing to accept for the "greater good." I also FULLY support torture of captured terrorists (and Im talking about KGB torture, not the soft ass waterboarding, (which is entirely psychological and be easily overcome), do NOT support due process for actual terrorists (terrorists that either carried out an attack, or attempted to carry out an attack.) I fully support executing them on the whitehouse lawn. That dude that tried to light up times square....he should have been killed without trial. Traitors IMHO do not deserve due process. (I realize this is not the law, just wishful thinking on my part.)
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:00 PM   #30
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Only in America would someone bltch because the president kills the enemy.

Apparently republicans prefer lying sack of shlt pvssies from texas who let the real enemy walk while they invade the wrong country.
I don't think anyone is bitching about the fact that the president is killing the enemy. I think their problem lies with HOW they are being killed.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:07 PM   #31
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What difference does it make?

It's the enemy.
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If you ever want to see what I mean by the arbitrariness of categories, check the situation of polarized politics. The next time a Martian visits earth, try to explain to him to why those who favor allowing capital punishment also oppose the elimination of a fetus in the mother's womb.
Congratulations.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:18 PM   #32
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What difference does it make?

It's the enemy.
Well, thats the debate. Due process is due process. Now, do we UTILIZE due process in all instances? IMHO, no.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:34 PM   #33
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I would say both. Definitely criminal, but wouldn't you need to identify the country that the terrorist is associated with and respond?

I think it's kind of creepy that just because someone in a supposedly high level position has a hunch that you might be a threat to the US that you could just be snuffed out like that with no due process that's supposed to be constitutionally guaranteed.

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It is questionable territory. But how you define it is how it should be approached. A criminal offense deals more due processes and whether or not the individual is guilty or not--courts, laws, procedures, etc. etc. War doesn't concern itself with such inconveniences. In war, guilty or innocent isn't a factor.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:36 PM   #34
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I don't think anyone is bitching about the fact that the president is killing the enemy. I think their problem lies with HOW they are being killed.
Where they are being killed is appropriate--Yemen, Pakistan, Sudan, etc. etc. It is not like we are sending drones into Germany to take out these guys.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:38 PM   #35
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I would think the CIA and the rest of them follow the offender for quite some time, gather as much intel as possible, and are pretty certain they are involved before sending a drone strike down their throat....at least that what I hope.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:41 PM   #36
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Where they are being killed is appropriate--Yemen, Pakistan, Sudan, etc. etc. It is not like we are sending drones into Germany to take out these guys.
I didn't disagree. If the criteria is kept high, and the citizen terrorist qualifies, I personally have no issues with it. Others still think that due process/constitution should prevail, but in this case, it is the lesser of two evils, and IMHO, I would accept the risk. This does give the government enormous power that can be mis-used though, so something should be put on the books to cap it and a certain standard set.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:43 PM   #37
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Remember when all those people were crying that we weren't extending all of our rights to foreign terrorists captured in battle? I do
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:48 PM   #38
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But where else are we going to get our oil from?
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:56 PM   #39
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Anwar al-Alaki, while I don't mourn his death, I see his killing as a slippery slope. Same goes for this memo and what it is proposing. I think a better alternative is for an American citizen that is being targeted overseas that has a nexus to terrorism and is an imminent threat, is to be tried in absentia. That way there is some sort of due process, review, and evidence can be weighed. It could even be a closed court or classified hearing (like they are doing for Pfc Bradely Manning in regards to Wikileaks), but at least there is some kind of judicial process. Additionally, perhaps the sentencing can range from imposing sanctions on the individual, such as not permitting return to the US, freezing financial assets, or depending on the severity of his/her actions, maybe even the death penalty (for a capital crime - treason?).
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:02 PM   #40
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Where they are being killed is appropriate--Yemen, Pakistan, Sudan, etc. etc. It is not like we are sending drones into Germany to take out these guys.
Some sovereignties are ok to violate?

http://articles.cnn.com/2002-11-04/j...yers?_s=PM:LAW
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