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Old 02-16-2013, 09:27 AM   #801
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Was he not shooting at the police from the cabin? Why shouldn't the police shoot back? Also he stated in his manifesto that he no longer feared for his life and had no intentions of surviving this.
Few things. The exaggerated amount of shots he may have fired is incredible. 1 guy shoots at a cop, and 200 cops fire back. Which one sounds like a machine gun? Secondly, after seeing the blue truck with the women in it get 45 rounds through the cab, I have no doubt he could have fired at one and received mag after mag in his direction.

Third, do you absolutely know it was him committing the crimes? His "manifesto" was put out on facebook first. Who is to say the initial murder was not him, especially when the real target was the police?

Again, what makes the police more important than others? I understand firing back, but making the guy kill himself with a shot to head rather than burn alive is terrible. He should have been arrested, charged and tried... Not murdered, or forced to commit suicide.

And don't for a second believe he could "give himself up"... They would have killed him the moment he walked outside.

Kinda odd the media was told to leave, and stop rolling camera, and then we get a gun battle, and the fire started. No video evidence, no problem. Listen to the scanner recordings. It paints a different picture than the rose colored glasses version the media is spinning.

Fact is, the fire, his suicide or forced suicide was wrong. He had the right to a trial, and the right to defense... He received neither. That is the problem.
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Old 02-16-2013, 09:40 AM   #802
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My only answer for this would be that they didn't know if anyone else was inside, but that's just a guess.
Your right, instead light the cabin on fire.
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Old 02-16-2013, 09:56 AM   #803
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it would have been nice to see him captured and put on trial. Then end result would most likely have been the same though. A trial would have just given him more attention. He probably would have said things like "I'm a sovereign citizen, I refuse to acknowledge the authority of this court over me."

In the end, it was either a quick death fighting back, or a long time on death row waiting for a needle while sucking up resources.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:43 AM   #804
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:48 AM   #805
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Few things. The exaggerated amount of shots he may have fired is incredible. 1 guy shoots at a cop, and 200 cops fire back. Which one sounds like a machine gun? Secondly, after seeing the blue truck with the women in it get 45 rounds through the cab, I have no doubt he could have fired at one and received mag after mag in his direction.

Third, do you absolutely know it was him committing the crimes? His "manifesto" was put out on facebook first. Who is to say the initial murder was not him, especially when the real target was the police?

Again, what makes the police more important than others? I understand firing back, but making the guy kill himself with a shot to head rather than burn alive is terrible. He should have been arrested, charged and tried... Not murdered, or forced to commit suicide.

And don't for a second believe he could "give himself up"... They would have killed him the moment he walked outside.

Kinda odd the media was told to leave, and stop rolling camera, and then we get a gun battle, and the fire started. No video evidence, no problem. Listen to the scanner recordings. It paints a different picture than the rose colored glasses version the media is spinning.

Fact is, the fire, his suicide or forced suicide was wrong. He had the right to a trial, and the right to defense... He received neither. That is the problem.
I'm not defending Dorner or LEOs, but quit saying Dorner was "forced". He is responsible for his actions. He made a lot of decisions that put him in that cabin with a bunch of cops outside that had ample reason to believe he intended to kill as many of them as possible and didn't care/intend to survive the final encounter.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:48 AM   #806
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:06 AM   #807
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Few things. The exaggerated amount of shots he may have fired is incredible. 1 guy shoots at a cop, and 200 cops fire back. Which one sounds like a machine gun? Secondly, after seeing the blue truck with the women in it get 45 rounds through the cab, I have no doubt he could have fired at one and received mag after mag in his direction.

Third, do you absolutely know it was him committing the crimes? His "manifesto" was put out on facebook first. Who is to say the initial murder was not him, especially when the real target was the police?

Again, what makes the police more important than others? I understand firing back, but making the guy kill himself with a shot to head rather than burn alive is terrible. He should have been arrested, charged and tried... Not murdered, or forced to commit suicide.

And don't for a second believe he could "give himself up"... They would have killed him the moment he walked outside.

Kinda odd the media was told to leave, and stop rolling camera, and then we get a gun battle, and the fire started. No video evidence, no problem. Listen to the scanner recordings. It paints a different picture than the rose colored glasses version the media is spinning.

Fact is, the fire, his suicide or forced suicide was wrong. He had the right to a trial, and the right to defense... He received neither. That is the problem.


Also, there was no 'forced' suicide. This isn't ancient Athens. Dorner had every opportunity to surrender. He had ample time before that to turn himself in. Suicide was his course of action that he himself decided to take.

and since you are so big on the personal responsibility/accountability thing. Where is it in the case of Dorner? He is responsible for his own actions, and his actions placed him in a spot where it was death by fire, death by suicide, or turn himself in. He made the decision to execute one of those options.

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Old 02-16-2013, 11:14 AM   #808
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Who the hell is this guy? Most of the people in this thread who seem to have been rooting for Dormer are not liberally leaning based on their posts in poli-sci.

He's no different than other newscasters. Taking things out of context, taking things out of context, and oh yeah! Taking things out of context.

He talks about "KKK Democrats" as if that party has anything to do with the current Democrats.

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Old 02-16-2013, 11:19 AM   #809
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:21 AM   #810
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Also, there was no 'forced' suicide. This isn't ancient Athens. Dorner had every opportunity to surrender. He had ample time before that to turn himself in. Suicide was his course of action that he himself decided to take.

and since you are so big on the personal responsibility/accountability thing. Where is it in the case of Dorner? He is responsible for his own actions, and his actions placed him in a spot where it was death by fire, death by suicide, or turn himself in. He made the decision to execute one of those options.
Sorry, but you are truly numb in the head if you believe he could have walked outside with his hands in the air and surrendered. He was forced into making the decision to burn, or kill himself. While his actions pushed this decision, and he should be held responsible for those actions, he was not given the right to surrender and go to trial. He was only given the right to defend himself after killing 3 people, and being on the run.

You might think the idea is crazy that another person could have committed the crimes, but it is a serious question. What proof do we have of him killing these people. He was a suspect. His actions may lead you to believe he was guilty, as does his "manifesto", but unless video proof is present, along with fingerprints, DNA and other evidence, you are not 100% sure. The fact that a cop was killed, and he was fingered for it, means his life was over regardless of the circumstances.

Look at the others that were shot up by the LAPD. Do you think they were not going to shoot first and ask questions later in regards to him? They shot up a truck with female paperboys in it. No positive ID, no exacting process to confirm who was in there... Shoot first, ask questions later. Same goes for that Honda truck shooting. There was no way he was walking out and surrendering, even before the cabin standoff.

My point was, the media has painted a picture to everyone about how crazy this guy was. They have provided no actual proof of his involvement, and yet the LAPD shoots innocent people, and gets the pass. Dorner PROVED the LAPD was corrupt, and could get away with attempted murder. Anyone who thinks this is not the case is crazy. Police shot innocent people because they were afraid that he was in teh truck, with no knowledge that it was in fact him. The LAPS responded by saying they would replace the truck. So crooked.

Those officers involved in shooting the women, and the those that set fire to the cabin should be fired, and charged. If Dorner had the ability to surrender, they should have allowed him to. They forced his hand in this case, and they got away with murder.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:28 AM   #811
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Who the hell is this guy? Most of the people in this thread who seem to have been rooting for Dormer are not liberally leaning based on their posts in poli-sci.

He's no different than other newscasters. Taking things out of context, taking things out of context, and oh yeah! Taking things out of context.

He talks about "KKK Democrats" as if that party has anything to do with the current Democrats.

I don't think anyone was "rooting" for Dorner (at most, just entertainment) but rather to have a government agency (the LAPD in this case) get what's coming to them (exposure wise.) The shooting of the trucks and lighting the cabin on fire were prime examples. No one in their right mind would "root" for Dorner to keep killing people. Having said that, take the cops that shot up the truck. What do they deserve? If I was in charge, they would rot in prison for the rest of miserable lives, and if I could, I would give them the death penalty. What if that was your wife/sister/mother in that truck? Is it ok with you that the cops just opened fire with complete disregard for human life? And don't give me that officer safety crap. If they feared for their lives since some guy is after cops, they should have turned in their badge and went home in their civies.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:20 PM   #812
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Sorry, but you are truly numb in the head if you believe he could have walked outside with his hands in the air and surrendered. He was forced into making the decision to burn, or kill himself. While his actions pushed this decision, and he should be held responsible for those actions, he was not given the right to surrender and go to trial. He was only given the right to defend himself after killing 3 people, and being on the run.

You might think the idea is crazy that another person could have committed the crimes, but it is a serious question. What proof do we have of him killing these people. He was a suspect. His actions may lead you to believe he was guilty, as does his "manifesto", but unless video proof is present, along with fingerprints, DNA and other evidence, you are not 100% sure. The fact that a cop was killed, and he was fingered for it, means his life was over regardless of the circumstances.

Look at the others that were shot up by the LAPD. Do you think they were not going to shoot first and ask questions later in regards to him? They shot up a truck with female paperboys in it. No positive ID, no exacting process to confirm who was in there... Shoot first, ask questions later. Same goes for that Honda truck shooting. There was no way he was walking out and surrendering, even before the cabin standoff.

My point was, the media has painted a picture to everyone about how crazy this guy was. They have provided no actual proof of his involvement, and yet the LAPD shoots innocent people, and gets the pass. Dorner PROVED the LAPD was corrupt, and could get away with attempted murder. Anyone who thinks this is not the case is crazy. Police shot innocent people because they were afraid that he was in teh truck, with no knowledge that it was in fact him. The LAPS responded by saying they would replace the truck. So crooked.

Those officers involved in shooting the women, and the those that set fire to the cabin should be fired, and charged. If Dorner had the ability to surrender, they should have allowed him to. They forced his hand in this case, and they got away with murder.
This is some of the most ridiculous drivel I've read on this forum. And that's saying quite a bit, since this is E46OT.

No one is ever 100% court-of-law proven guilty BEFORE they're arrested. With the exception of prison escapees or other special circumstances, everyone that's ever arrested is a suspect that hasn't been convicted. To act like the police can't use deadly force against someone until they have "video proof is present, along with fingerprints, DNA and other evidence" is just asinine. The cops can arrest you. If you try to kill the cops that try to arrest you, they're allowed to try to kill you right back. If you've been on a cop-killing rampage for several days, you can expect the cops that are assigned to arrest you to quite reasonably expect you to try to kill them, too.

I agree 100% that he couldn't have walked outside with his hands in the air and surrendered. Why couldn't he do that?

Because in the preceding days he stalked, shot and killed cops and their families on several occasions in various locations under different circumstances. So he'd established a very clear pattern of behavior. Expecting the police at the cabin to ignore that pattern and think that suddenly he'd peaceably drop his weapons, put his hands in the air and surrender to them is just ludicrous.

If only the police had some kind of a statement from him to evaluate his intentions and his mindset so they could assess what his most likely behavior would be...

Oh, wait, they had that. He posted a rambling manifesto stating his violent, murderous and suicidal intentions in no uncertain terms. He then behaved exactly as he stated he would behave, reinforcing the seriousness with which that manifesto should be taken.

If you were an LEO standing outside that cabin, what part of any of that would lead you to believe that this guy would come out with his hands up and peaceably surrender? What odds would you take on that, given that your life would be forfeit if you were wrong?

If you're hanging out in the bar wearing a green shirt, and I walk in and start slapping every green shirted guy in the face, what are you going to do when I get to you? Give me the benefit of the doubt, try to reason with me, or slap me first before I have a chance to slap you?

Dorner made his choices. He put himself in that position. His statements and actions set the expectation that he was going out guns blazing, trying to kill as many cops and cop family members as possible on his way down. For you to sit there an act like "LEO didn't give him a choice" is incredibly naive.

Look, as I said before, I don't know enough of the tactical details to know if the LEOs had any reasonable courses of action they should have taken instead. But to act like Dorner wasn't mostly responsible for the situation and the outcome is setting new heights for stupidity.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:47 PM   #813
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back in for the lulz at this point now
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:11 PM   #814
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do you absolutely know it was him committing the crimes? His "manifesto" was put out on facebook first. Who is to say the initial murder was not him, especially when the real target was the police?




Dorner PROVED the LAPD was corrupt, and could get away with attempted murder. Anyone who thinks this is not the case is crazy.

So in one post you question whether he actually posted the manifesto and then in another you claim that he correctly proved the the police were corrupt ( as written in "his" manifesto.)

The point is, this is no different then any other situation in which the POs were fired upon and returned fire which resulted in the suspects death. Let's pretend that he didn't write the manifesto or kill anyone, but the fact that he opened fire on POs was reason enough for them to kill him.
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:00 PM   #815
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.
the silver surfer video game is so bad and frustrating, it makes me want to go on a dorner-like rampage.

jk FBI, dont come after me
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I'm having a hard time imagining any set of responses that ends with anyone expressing admiration for Marshmallow.

Perhaps you should stop responding. It's a no-win for you here. :dunno:
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:02 PM   #816
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the silver surfer video game is so bad and frustrating, it makes me want to go on a dorner-like rampage.

jk FBI, dont come after me
just make sure you target the developers and their families, then you'll be justified.
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:22 PM   #817
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just make sure you target the developers and their families, then you'll be justified.
Yeah, most of the people here will even cheer you on!

BTW, I didn't know I had a video game, but dammit if I do, it's gonna be hard.
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:23 PM   #818
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Yeah, most of the people here will even cheer you on!

BTW, I didn't know I had a video game, but dammit if I do, it's gonna be hard.
this screen cap sums it up perfectly

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I'm having a hard time imagining any set of responses that ends with anyone expressing admiration for Marshmallow.

Perhaps you should stop responding. It's a no-win for you here. :dunno:
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:26 PM   #819
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this screen cap sums it up perfectly

Tebowing after defeating you? That's just how I celebrate.
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:14 PM   #820
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So in one post you question whether he actually posted the manifesto and then in another you claim that he correctly proved the the police were corrupt ( as written in "his" manifesto.)

The point is, this is no different then any other situation in which the POs were fired upon and returned fire which resulted in the suspects death. Let's pretend that he didn't write the manifesto or kill anyone, but the fact that he opened fire on POs was reason enough for them to kill him.
I never questioned the writing of the "manifesto". I asked if we had proof he killed anyone. You know, proof enough that they could get into a fire fight, and then torch him.

I guess I'm the crazy one here, who thinks the police acted over their responsibility and killed him. He had no choices left, but to kill himself. I think they acted wrongly, and I wish they would be held responsible.
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