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Old 02-13-2013, 10:55 AM   #21
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Do you not see the two graphs in the same post?


I'm sure you have those handy.
I don't see any graphs actually. Where are they, I'm at work so the images may be blocked.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:58 AM   #22
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All Americans should own a home. It's the best form of investment and will lead to a prosperous America : Bill Clinton

The notion was to provide incentives to the banks in order to get them to open up loan requirements. The government ENTICED the market to lend to individuals who were underqualified. The banks would NEVER take on that level of risk without that support...
"Tonight we set a new goal: 7 million more affordable homes in the next 10 years, so more American families will be able to open the door and say, "Welcome to my home."

George Bush 2004 State of the Union. I guess he was referring to the LIAR LOANS.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:59 AM   #23
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All Americans should own a home. It's the best form of investment and will lead to a prosperous America : Bill Clinton

The notion was to provide incentives to the banks in order to get them to open up loan requirements. The government ENTICED the market to lend to individuals who were underqualified. The banks would NEVER take on that level of risk without that support...
You can't single handedly blame the government and absolve the corporations. The government didn't force banks to give out loans. People often point to things like the Community Reinvestment Act. Something like 6% of high risk loans were covered by CRA. Again, blaming the recession solely on one party shows that a person has no clue what they are talking about.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:04 AM   #24
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You can't single handedly blame the government and absolve the corporations. The government didn't force banks to give out loans. People often point to things like the Community Reinvestment Act. Something like 6% of high risk loans were covered by CRA. Again, blaming the recession solely on one party shows that a person has no clue what they are talking about.
I'm not blaming either party here.. I'm blaming those who believe the government can better our economy by throwing their weight behind moronic notions : the CRA is a great example.

Again, without incentives, banks would NEVER take risky loans. They certainly aren't free of blame for the collapse, but they just played the game the government asked them to participate in...
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:04 AM   #25
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You can't single handedly blame the government and absolve the corporations. The government didn't force banks to give out loans. People often point to things like the Community Reinvestment Act. Something like 6% of high risk loans were covered by CRA. Again, blaming the recession solely on one party shows that a person has no clue what they are talking about.
ehh they sure encouraged it. Obama himself helped start lawsuits for alleged redlining...aka banks not giving out loans to people they think cannot repay it. To even think that a bank gives a crap about what color you are is insane. They care about whether or not you can pay them back, period. Green. CREAM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:10 AM   #26
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I'm not blaming either party here.. I'm blaming those who believe the government can better our economy by throwing their weight behind moronic notions : the CRA is a great example.

Again, without incentives, banks would NEVER take risky loans. They certainly aren't free of blame for the collapse, but they just played the game the government asked them to participate in...
You're missing the point, here. Risky loans are not the primary thing that brought our economy to it's knees.

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ehh they sure encouraged it. Obama himself helped start lawsuits for alleged redlining...aka banks not giving out loans to people they think cannot repay it. To even think that a bank gives a crap about what color you are is insane. They care about whether or not you can pay them back, period. Green. CREAM.
Sure, they encouraged it but force it, they did not. If they did, how do you explain banks that largely escaped the sub prime mess?

There are three parties that share in all of this. Government meddling, corporate greed, and personal irresponsibility.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:23 PM   #27
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Those companies would probably just leave America though.
Good. Let it pave the way for a new company to replace them.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:43 PM   #28
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You're missing the point, here. Risky loans are not the primary thing that brought our economy to it's knees.



Sure, they encouraged it but force it, they did not. If they did, how do you explain banks that largely escaped the sub prime mess?

There are three parties that share in all of this. Government meddling, corporate greed, and personal irresponsibility.
If you REMOVE the fallout of the risky loans (the housing bubble which brought down wall street), what other major factors played into the meltdown? I'm not negating your point but just asking for additional background for my own learning
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:51 PM   #29
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If you REMOVE the fallout of the risky loans (the housing bubble which brought down wall street), what other major factors played into the meltdown? I'm not negating your point but just asking for additional background for my own learning
Borrower greed.....aka, $100K HELOC's on an adjustable mortgage? Jackpot!

Lender greed.....aka, stated income loan? 110% LTV's? Nah, what could go wrong? Jackpot!

Democrat and Republican greed......aka, expand the voter base. Everyone needs a house, said Bush and Dubya. What could go wrong, they said.

There will always be a market for sub-prime loans and risky loans. Period. They existed before, they exist now, and they will exist in the future with or without government encouragement.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:51 PM   #30
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If you REMOVE the fallout of the risky loans (the housing bubble which brought down wall street), what other major factors played into the meltdown? I'm not negating your point but just asking for additional background for my own learning
Credit default swaps was one of the major contributors. The risky loans themselves would not have been enough to send the economy tumbling. Don't get me wrong... it would have hurt business, but nothing to the degree we saw.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:04 PM   #31
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Those companies would probably just leave America though.
Eliminating shell corporations in the Caymans or other tax havens where corps or individuals can shelter their profits from taxation is a good thing. It is a massive loophole that allows million/billions to escape viable and legal taxation in this country.

If BofA (just to use an example) wants to leave because of it, OK. Let them. The leave the country and take their taxable income and jobs with them, fine. They want to continue doing business in the US, great. They can do so under tariffs and other non-US regulations, and we get money from them that way. They don;t want to get squeezed that way. They are free to not do business in the US. Other banks will choose to stay. You might even get more local banks...rather than the huge mega-banks that we see today. Oh the horror!!! With the technology we have today, it is much easier for them to compete in a digital marketplace.

This whole "it will drive business away" is a argument. And it is funny that it comes from the most allegedly "free market" supporters. BofA leaves and by doing so they are kicked to the curb and told never to return. Fine. There will be banks that stay and grow and even new banks that will pop up to fill the void they leave. That is how the "free market" works after all. Supply and demand.

Might it have a short term blip on the market, yeah, OK it might. It sure as hell is gonna hurt BofA stock. But, that is part of the cost they pay in moving out of the US to save those tax dollars. We all make choices. Even if it blips the economy down in the short term, it will pay off in the long term. Fewer tax loopholes, jobs, and investment in US companies for the good of the US. And not just jobs for those with degrees, because everybody needs to face reality. Not everyone in this country has the monetary resources or intelligence or desire to get a college degree.

Do we still need big budget cuts and to curb spending, damn straight we do. But, it is not an either or situation. Many people I know in the "middle class or upper middle class" (folks making $120K+ per year) aren't as pi$$ed off that taxes are to high. They are more pi$$ed off that the effective rate on some of the richest citizens and corporations are 12-15% when they are paying 28-30+%. America is one of, the greatest countries in the world. There is more opportunity to make money here than most places in the world. There are freedoms here you don't get most places in the world. But, just like everything else, quality does not come cheap.

They want the freedoms and the opportunities this country provides them with, they are going to pay top dollar for it, that is capitalism at its best. They don't want to, that is fine. We don't need your business. We existed long before their business got here and we will be here long after their business is gone.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:20 PM   #32
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Again, without incentives, banks would NEVER take risky loans. They certainly aren't free of blame for the collapse, but they just played the game the government asked them to participate in...
You ever hear of the massive balloon mortgage loans of the late 70's and early 80's that led in part the S&L collapse. Banks took huge risks that housing bubbles in places like LA and NYC would continue. Made high risk loans, with massive balloon payments in 5 years, they knew most of these people weren't going to be able to meet. If they did great, if not, the banks foreclosed on real estate with a much higher value (one of the reasons foreclosure law was changed). That worked great, until some of these housing bubbles burst and people lost 25-40% of their equity in a matter of a few weeks. The S&L's were less regulated than the banks at that time, and bingo. It took a few years for that house of cards (and the books to catch up) but they did.

So please don't tell me that banks would NEVER take risky loans. Did the govt programs stoke the fire, abso-freakin-lutley. But, banks are greedy bastards. I worked for 3 in the early/mid 80's before I got into tech. If banks never to RISKY loans, they would never make a loan to anybody with a credit score under 680 and demand 40% down so a loan could never be "upside down".
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:30 PM   #33
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Good. Let it pave the way for a new company to replace them.
The new companies would be unable to compete on a global scale doing 100% business within America.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:00 PM   #34
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The new companies would be unable to compete on a global scale doing 100% business within America.
The two contradict each other.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:10 PM   #35
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The new companies would be unable to compete on a global scale doing 100% business within America.
They don't have to, to be successful companies. We keep hearing about how small businesses are the biggest drivers of the economy. Many of these small businesses just do their business in the USA and do just fine.
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:51 PM   #36
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The two contradict each other.
I mean if they do everything here 100%, they will lose out to foreign companies with far smaller costs. The ipod would cost "$2,000" if it was made in America, for example.
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:52 PM   #37
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They don't have to, to be successful companies. We keep hearing about how small businesses are the biggest drivers of the economy. Many of these small businesses just do their business in the USA and do just fine.
...and those aren't the businesses with offshore tax shelters. Those businesses are paying the actual corporate rate minus whatever deductions regular mom and pop places can take. There's no need to jack up their rates to try to get to Apple. You're throwing the baby out with the bath water.
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:54 PM   #38
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Tonight we set a new goal: 7 million more affordable homes in the next 10 years, so more American families will be able to open the door and say, "Welcome to my home."

George Bush 2004 State of the Union. I guess he was referring to the LIAR LOANS.
Guys like Chase always forget about Dubya's 2003 American Dream Downpayment Assistance Act - a program that GAVE down payments and easy loans to people who couldn't afford to make house payments.

This program created the 2005 housing bubble and subsequent mortgage meltdown.

"Clinton"
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:42 PM   #39
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...and those aren't the businesses with offshore tax shelters. Those businesses are paying the actual corporate rate minus whatever deductions regular mom and pop places can take. There's no need to jack up their rates to try to get to Apple. You're throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Have you looked at the text of the bill?

No where in that text is there a state of increase in tax rate. Baby in, bath water out.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:56 PM   #40
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I mean if they do everything here 100%, they will lose out to foreign companies with far smaller costs. The ipod would cost "$2,000" if it was made in America, for example.


A 64GB Ipod touch would likely be $550 rather than $400. The issue would be the production of chip foundries in the US to meet the demand. That would drive prices up initially over 5-7 years. However, the over all labor costs would not drive the price up 5x. No, it is not going to be as cheap as if it were built in China. But 5x, puhleez.

Frankly, I would gladly pay the extra $150 if it was made 100% in the US.

There is such a thing as the real cost. If you want a luxury product, you pay a premium for it. You want a made to measure Zenga suit, or a Vivienne Westwood tie, its gonna cost you a great deal more than what you can get made in china from Wal-Mart or Target. There are a number of factors: design, quality of materials, craftsmanship. Not to mention, the govt can put import tariffs on any or all of those products coming in from fill_in_the_blank.
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