E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Political Talk

Political Talk
You may discuss anything regarding politics in this forum ONLY. If you cannot respect others opinions, your access to this forum will be removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-13-2013, 07:02 PM   #41
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: Beach Cruiser
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
I put quotations around the number for a reason, your number is as much of a guess as mine

Also, there is an issue here with the argument. One one hand you have people arguing that even though the US has near the top corporate tax rate, it doesn't matter because of tax shelters. They argue that US corporations really pay 12% or whatever. This is fine and dandy, but mom and pop corps are paying the full rate.

That argument is used when someone argues that the US has one of the highest global corporate tax rates. If you take out the apple's and other multinational corporations that (bring in jobs to the US, btw) use tax shelters you have all the small businesses in America dealing with the highest tax rate in the world (second, third, whatever). As such, the argument that our corporate tax rates are already too high is indeed valid and applies to the vast majority of corporations in the US (most are small businesses).

You'd probably yield better results by lowering the rate and then eliminating certain deductions. The higher the rate, the higher the incentive to circumvent the tax. At some point the rate will be low enough that it will make economic sense to just stay here. As such, overall revenues will increase as a result.
__________________
Gold Medal Recipient: Jimmy Rustling (2014)

“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin

Last edited by Act of God; 02-13-2013 at 08:06 PM.
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 07:51 PM   #42
Goughie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Over the pond...
Posts: 564
My Ride: 330d Sport Touring
Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post



They can GTFO. See if Dubai will bail them out.
Said in jest I know, but Abu Dhabi bailed out Dubai to the tune of £50 billion so that'd be unlikely!

This issue of corporate tax avoidance is a hot potato in the UK too right now. The difference here is that as well as using tax free havens, some of the largest companies in the UK negotiate their tax rates with our revenue service - which is complete BS. That's clearly not a level playing field.
__________________
http://i38.tinypic.com/oif03r.png
Sig is a BlownE30M3 production!

"The protection of views purely on religious grounds cannot be justified. It is not only an irrational idea, but it is also divisive, capricious and arbitrary" - Lord Justice Laws, UK 29/04/2010
Goughie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 01:34 AM   #43
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
I put quotations around the number for a reason, your number is as much of a guess as mine
Having working the computer hw mfg sector for 20+ years, I'd wager mine is likely a more educated guess than yours. The point being that yes, buying american made is going to be more expensive than buying china made, but, to say that it will be 500% more expensive, is very unrealistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
Also, there is an issue here with the argument. One one hand you have people arguing that even though the US has near the top corporate tax rate, it doesn't matter because of tax shelters. They argue that US corporations really pay 12% or whatever. This is fine and dandy, but mom and pop corps are paying the full rate.

That argument is used when someone argues that the US has one of the highest global corporate tax rates. If you take out the apple's and other multinational corporations that (bring in jobs to the US, btw) use tax shelters you have all the small businesses in America dealing with the highest tax rate in the world (second, third, whatever). As such, the argument that our corporate tax rates are already too high is indeed valid and applies to the vast majority of corporations in the US (most are small businesses).

You'd probably yield better results by lowering the rate and then eliminating certain deductions. The higher the rate, the higher the incentive to circumvent the tax. At some point the rate will be low enough that it will make economic sense to just stay here. As such, overall revenues will increase as a result.
have no problem with lowering the tax rates (personal and corporate) provided all deductions are eliminated. And I agree the "mom and pops" are the ones getting screwed over. But, so are the working class when it comes to taxes. The very wealthy can afford to find shelters (and tax lawyers) for much of their income and as a result pay a much lower percentage in tax than many work class folks do. The same goes for corporations. Why should corporations get to deduct the cost of their rent off their taxes, but, a citizen doesn't get to deduct their rent costs off their taxes.

So first lets make it more difficult to circumvent. If you don't, then all you will get is a lower tax rate and just as much circumvention. Multinational corporations have teams of lawyers and accounts to do just such circumnavigating. They are still going to do it. A lower rate, unless its effectively zero, isn't going to stop that, and you damn well know it.
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 08:54 AM   #44
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 104
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Quote:
The point being that yes, buying American made is going to be more expensive than buying china made,
Probably true, at least when looked at solely from the point of view of the initial purchase price. However, that ignores much broader and complex discussions and understanding of what happens to that money post-purchase. Does it get recirculated back into the American economy in the form of domestic corporate earnings and profits, American worker wages and other such things to the ultimate greater benefit of the overall American economy and a wide range of its citizens.

Or, does that a large proportion of that money get siphoned out of the broader domestic economy with the benefits concentrated to large international corporations, foreign companies, workers and economies, and concentrated to a rather narrow sliver of well-placed citizens in the economic elite rather than being disbursed more broadly and equitably across the wide range of participants in our economy.

I might argue that the latter scenario is becoming the dominant one in large sectors of our economy.

So yes, that initial purchase price itself might be somewhat cheaper for the Chinese made gadget, but that may well represent a false, even Faustian, bargain in the long run and in the big picture for the U.S. in general.

Last edited by Rhumb; 02-14-2013 at 08:56 AM.
Rhumb is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 12:00 PM   #45
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
Probably true, at least when looked at solely from the point of view of the initial purchase price. However, that ignores much broader and complex discussions and understanding of what happens to that money post-purchase. Does it get recirculated back into the American economy in the form of domestic corporate earnings and profits, American worker wages and other such things to the ultimate greater benefit of the overall American economy and a wide range of its citizens.

Or, does that a large proportion of that money get siphoned out of the broader domestic economy with the benefits concentrated to large international corporations, foreign companies, workers and economies, and concentrated to a rather narrow sliver of well-placed citizens in the economic elite rather than being disbursed more broadly and equitably across the wide range of participants in our economy.

I might argue that the latter scenario is becoming the dominant one in large sectors of our economy.

So yes, that initial purchase price itself might be somewhat cheaper for the Chinese made gadget, but that may well represent a false, even Faustian, bargain in the long run and in the big picture for the U.S. in general.
One can look at the american economy and the disparity between the most wealthy and the shrinking of the so-called middle class, and see an interesting curve. Reversing it back over the timeline and looking at it relative to the percentage of goods made and consumed in the US vs those imported. First from Japan, then from China and others. Over the long haul is bringing back mfg to the US good for the economy, yes in many cases. Look at American Apparel, they have had ups and downs. But, they are back to profit ability. Their stock has slowly but steadily increased over that last 18-24 months. They are making it work. Something many people said was not possible. It is not easy and it is not going to happen over night. But it can happen.

The other thing is a cornerstone needs to be about quality. Why did imports cripple the US auto industry in the 70's and 80's. It was more about the fact that Hondas and Datsuns were more reliable and better built than what Detroit was coming out with it. It was better designed and understood the changing marketplace much better. Those reasons had much more to do with it than price.

And the point you make works in the reverse. The "big 3" blew it, and not only did it cost workers jobs, but, jobs of their suppliers and their suppliers suppliers and eventually jobs of the businesses that supported all those workers. The cleaners, grocery stores, and dozens of other business types (most of which used to be local and/or "mom & pop".

And that had further ripple effects. Look at the closure of auto related mfg plants in LA (and unfair housing practices) led to the birth and rapid growth of the crips and the bloods in LA. (The doco "Crips and Bloods: Made In America" by Stacy Peralta does a very good job at exploring this little known fact, worth a look, IMO.)

I concur, there are far reaching impacts, beyond just the the purchase price.
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use