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Old 02-19-2013, 05:59 PM   #121
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One of the major upsides of moving beyond an agrarian, subsistence-based society is the increase in leisure time.

In the subsistence-agrarian life, every hour of work has to be bent towards putting food on the table, for today or for the upcoming winter. Leisure time is reserved for church, for adults to make babies, or after you have sufficient children grown enough to take care of you and your work is no longer needed.

Unfortunately, we've gotten to a point where a lot of people believe that leisure is the norm, and work should only be done when necessary. And even when you're working, you should still be entertained by it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for a Butlerian Jihad or anything. But the idea that "fun" is more important than "work" needs to die.
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:37 PM   #122
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While I somewhat agree with your example this works efficiently because it takes place in a super-saturated environment (tons of applicants, tons of employers). If you make the market smaller.....say, rural Anytown, USA, the flexibility is not there.


Totally agree with you on the last point......minimum wage is meant to support one person. You can either get a better job, or choose not to have a litter of children.
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Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
One of the major upsides of moving beyond an agrarian, subsistence-based society is the increase in leisure time.

In the subsistence-agrarian life, every hour of work has to be bent towards putting food on the table, for today or for the upcoming winter. Leisure time is reserved for church, for adults to make babies, or after you have sufficient children grown enough to take care of you and your work is no longer needed.

Unfortunately, we've gotten to a point where a lot of people believe that leisure is the norm, and work should only be done when necessary. And even when you're working, you should still be entertained by it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for a Butlerian Jihad or anything. But the idea that "fun" is more important than "work" needs to die.


I like where this is going. There are others who are like-minded.
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:47 PM   #123
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And the inflation begins...
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:20 PM   #124
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And the inflation begins...
Inflation began a LONG time ago....
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:22 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
One of the major upsides of moving beyond an agrarian, subsistence-based society is the increase in leisure time.

In the subsistence-agrarian life, every hour of work has to be bent towards putting food on the table, for today or for the upcoming winter. Leisure time is reserved for church, for adults to make babies, or after you have sufficient children grown enough to take care of you and your work is no longer needed.

Unfortunately, we've gotten to a point where a lot of people believe that leisure is the norm, and work should only be done when necessary. And even when you're working, you should still be entertained by it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for a Butlerian Jihad or anything. But the idea that "fun" is more important than "work" needs to die.
The 1970s called and wants their work philosophies back.

"Fun" is now an important aspect of the work place. It can increase productivity and inspire innovation. McKinsey & Company proved this.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:23 PM   #126
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That's a bigger raise than the military got!

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Bimmer App
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:24 PM   #127
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Why are so many here against helping the needy?
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:25 PM   #128
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Inflation began a LONG time ago....
Inflation has been going on for as long as we've had currency, but in any event, our inflation rate is below the 100 year average right now. A little bit more of inflation would actually do us good right now.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:33 PM   #129
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The 1970s called and wants their work philosophies back.

"Fun" is now an important aspect of the work place. It can increase productivity and inspire innovation. McKinsey & Company proved this.
I understand having fun in the workplace. My job is fun because I really believe in what my organization does, and I understand how if it into that. My office does not require ping pong tables and video games to keep kids entertained while they're supposed to be working. We hire focused and dedicated adults to work, not kids who need enjoyment fed to them.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:35 PM   #130
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:20 PM   #131
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Why are so many here against helping the needy?
Who's needy? Are you implying those working on minimum wage are needy?
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:45 AM   #132
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Why are so many here against helping the needy?
I'm not. I give to my selected charities. Hell, yesterday I gave half my lunch to a homeless guy.

I just have a hard time with throwing money around hoping it solves a problem.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:16 AM   #133
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Why are so many here against helping the needy?
You just put the spotlight on why there is such a huge gap between the two sides in this conversation. You frame the position of those who disagree with you as being "against the needy." That simply does not describe the mind-set of the vast majority of those who oppose the minimum wage increase. Rather, they (and this includes me, by the way), simply believe that increasing the minimum wage DOES NOT HELP THE NEEDY and in fact, hurts the needy.

There is much evidence to support our position. That evidence is there for everyone to debate and hopefully, to come to a consensus of what to do, or not do as the case may be. Any disagreement remaining after such a debate is quite possibly fair and reasonable, as not all facts are 100% indicative of a single course of action.

But to resort to simply labeling the opposing side as "against the needy" is no less offensive to most of us than I am sure you find the comments from the 0.001% of your opposition who may in fact actually be against the needy (as I am sure they do exist!). We instantly see you as uninformed and unwilling to discuss and debate the facts, leaving you with only ad hominem attacks (welcome to the internet!).

If your question was asked in earnest, then I hope my earnest response is helpful in your understanding of the other "side."
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:00 AM   #134
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Are we seriously calling people who work and earn money "needy" now? What is the cutoff then? Is $9 an hour no longer needy? $12?
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:47 AM   #135
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Lol @ badfast generalizing
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:16 PM   #136
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I'm not. I give to my selected charities. Hell, yesterday I gave half my lunch to a homeless guy.

I just have a hard time with throwing money around hoping it solves a problem.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:21 PM   #137
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Inflation has been going on for as long as we've had currency, but in any event, our inflation rate is below the 100 year average right now. A little bit more of inflation would actually do us good right now.
why are you trying to destroy my savings
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:17 AM   #138
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Enlightening read, and explains one way that raising the minimum wage does not help the "needy" but rather helps the not-needy:

http://townhall.com/columnists/walte...ation-n1525477

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Let's work through an example. Suppose 100 yards of fence could be built using one of two techniques. You could hire three low-skilled workers for $15 each, or you could hire one high-skilled worker for $40. Either way, you get the same 100 yards of fence built. If you sought maximum profits, which production technique would you employ? I'm guessing that you'd hire one high-skilled worker and pay him $40 rather than hire three low-skilled workers for $15 each. Your labor costs would be $40 rather than $45.

Suppose the high-skilled worker came into your office and demanded $55 a day. What would be your response? You'd probably tell him to go play in the traffic and hire the three low-skilled workers. After all, hiring the three low-skilled workers for $45, to get the same 100 yards of fence, would be cheaper than the $55 a day now demanded by the high-skilled worker.

The high-skilled worker is not stupid and knows that's exactly what you'd do. He will do a bit of organizing first, convincing decent, caring people that low-skilled workers are being exploited and not earning a living wage and that Congress should enact a minimum wage in the fencing industry of at least $20. After Congress enacts a minimum wage of $20, what then happens to the chances of a high-skilled worker's successfully demanding $55 a day? They go up because he's used the coercive powers of Congress to price his competition out of the market. Because of the minimum wage, it would cost you $60 to use the three low-skilled workers.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:58 PM   #139
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Enlightening read, and explains one way that raising the minimum wage does not help the "needy" but rather helps the not-needy:

http://townhall.com/columnists/walte...ation-n1525477

Sample from article:
Interesting take but they are missing the third option which is what actually happens the majority of the time. The article compares 3 low skill workers to a single high skill worker. What usually happens is the business will cut its own costs and hire two low skill workers and dump the workload on them. It's happening everywhere already. Restaurants, hospitals, etc.
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:36 PM   #140
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Interesting take but they are missing the third option which is what actually happens the majority of the time. The article compares 3 low skill workers to a single high skill worker. What usually happens is the business will cut its own costs and hire two low skill workers and dump the workload on them. It's happening everywhere already. Restaurants, hospitals, etc.
No doubt that happens, and I recall that you are in the restaurant business so you surely have first hand experience with this.

But, one of the following will result from what you describe:

A. The work gets done effectively by the two low skill workers, which means that three workers were not really required to begin with; or

B. The work does not get done effectively which means the business will suffer (e.g., bad customer service in a restaurant), and the business owner will either adapt (by changing his hiring practices) or he will fail; or

C. The low skill workers will improve their skills and will therefore be more attractive to other employers - or to this employer, if he is smart.

All of these results take some varying amount of time to appear, which is why employers many times don't recognize the connections among their hiring practices, business sucess and staff turnover. No one said free market capitalism makes all employers smart! And I don't aim that comment at you since I know nothing about your job, practices, etc.
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