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Old 02-17-2013, 10:05 AM   #1
Hellzbellz
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E46 engine noise - not tensioner - Vacum Pump??

OK SO !!! timing chain, guides and tensioner all replaced and timing reset - Still have a noise !!!! took me to get a stethoscope to isolate where noise is actually coming from!!! Noise is just where the stepper motor sits near back of engine. Had garage open rocker cover and have a look, they say there is wear to the cam timing area, but the car only has 35,000 and dont see this being much wear as car well looked after, but appreciate any engine driven has wear. Question could this noise be caused by the vanos hexical gears being worn and moving cam shafts?! I read that the play in vanos takes path of least resistance and will cause play and noise at cams?!! the noise is not horrendous only starts when engine has been started for around 2 mins - so if it was truly the cam shaft it would surely be noisy on first start up due to no oil reaching top of engine !! Car drives fine but noise is more evident at 1800-2000 revs and especially when take foot off accelerator, maybe due to less engine noise overall showing this up !! Noise is a bit like a diesel engine. Read that most people say noise is normal and to leave well alone - car seems to drive fine, start first time, no apparent loss of power. Can any body please help as ive just been quoted 1500 but cant guarantee noise will stop !!! Its been to about 4 garages 3 Indy and 1 BMW dealers - who said timing chain tensioner, fault code was misfire on cylinder 4 and all cylinders - no other fault codes!! but clearly timing chain, tensioner etc has not been the cause of noise - guides are all intact no chips gauges cracks etc.
316ti Compast Sport
54 Plate
35,541 miles
well maintained
never had a problem in the past with engine
HEEELLLPPP!!!
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:10 AM   #2
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This is where a vid of your sound might help.

I'm at 224K miles and my timing chain is fine. They almost all are. That shop should have known that before stealing your money...nothing personal!

Also, by 'stepper motor' do you mean your blower motor for the HVAC? Or something else?
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:24 AM   #3
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Hi thanks for repling, I havent managed to record my own noise but this from you tube is same noise.



as ive said timing chain replaced, tensioner guides etc. rest etc. etc. !!! To no avail!!

This link at you tube suggests vacum pump and it certainly is in this area, I thought vanos hexical teeth/gears could be worn and this might cause play in cam shaft?!
I'm going to have garage check vacum pump by unplugging and if noise stops - then might be vacum pump!!

I'm pretty sick of dragging car through garages with no one able to give me an answer and only giving me very expensive quotes - I get the feeling that its something stupid/simple but no one seems to know what it is - I dont want to spend any more money until someone can say whats causing the noise. Like I said car drives fine -havent noticed any loss of power - no noise on starts up and always starts first time and always has - just this noise is concerning me!!!
Thanks for any help
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:33 AM   #4
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sorry yes I mean the vvt motor at top of engine
http://1.2.3.13/bmi/i1136.photobucke...psf2353d30.jpg

The one shown here with the drill worm mechanism controlling top of cams - please bear with me as the names seems to change - its also known as the Acuator part no: 11377548387 on real oem.

Thanks so much
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:50 AM   #5
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Begin by isolating the source of the sound...if stethoscope doesn't work, try a section of hose. Also, all sounds are bad, though new ones, often mean something is going on.

But, are you sure you're using the right oil, have you checked for vacuum leaks? I'm not sure what the vacuum pump is you're referring to...we have a disa that rattles, a vent hose from valve cover (rocker cover) that cracks and attenuates internal engine sounds. CCV valve fails and makes noise.

I haven't heard of any severe issues with vanos (vvt), but then again, not many guys get their timing chains done at all, much less at your mileage. If you have the same sound as before that work, I guess that suggests that at least they didn't mess anything up. Timing is a delicate operation.

We're not that familiar with your engine here, but someone will be able to help you more, I'm sure. Also, check your regional forum for shop recommendations.

Good luck!
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:08 AM   #6
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Hi, yip the stethoscope I used let me hear that the noise is more evident at the vvt motor real oem No: 9 on this parts list: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...96&hg=11&fg=15

The vacuum pump is No:2 on this real oem part list http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...78&hg=11&fg=15

these two parts are quite close in proximity and I realise that noise can travel and resonate, but its in this area. Just cant find any garage that knows what it is!!
I'm now calling the BMW dealers/stealers PERPS as in the american for offenders - Process of Elimination by Replacing Parts

I've read people saying its just the usual rattle that starts after a bit of aging, some people see this at less than half the mileage I have and just ignore it and it doesnt change and car goes for years - but I dont want to do damage.

I just wish someone could say 'oh yeah, hear it before it this part...' Cost plenty to have timing chain guides tensioner and timing reset so really fed up with thought of other parts being replaced and making no difference either !!!

Thanks - I'll certainly post what I find it to be - if ever find out !!
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:23 AM   #7
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It sounds like your oil lifters are going through hell. That sound is so annoying damn.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:35 AM   #8
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maybe exhaust leak?
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:35 AM   #9
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That vvt motor...seems like it's analogous to our disa...and that rattles...and that's kind of what it sounds like to me...but I don't know. Seems like if it was the sound would be greatest right there, but I don't know your engine at all. Sorry.
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:10 PM   #10
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dmax - pretty sure he's referring to the VANOS unit, not the disa.

Your noise could definitely be the VANOS worm gear rattling. See this link:

http://drvanos.com/index.php?option=...d=11&Itemid=10

It's unfortunate you wasted money on the timing chain, most people don't mess with it.
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:32 PM   #11
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Of the two diagrams he sent...one 'seemed' akin to disa, the other looked like the vanos. I know the vanos can rattle, but not common in all of our cars. OP...check out beisansystems.com It explains well which cars seem to be susceptible to what. If it is vanos, you can replace stuff to minimize the rattling. I did the kit with a friend on his e36...it was more than just the rings we use. IDK...could be...they're both known for rattling.
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:38 PM   #12
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Hey, sorry to break the bad news to you guys - YOUR DEALING WITH A FEMALE!!! lol !! Please don't let that put you off helping me - I worked with cars in the past and have a great interest in mechanics - would rather talk brake shoes than stilettos!!! Probably why my friends glaze over when I talk cars!! Dont get me wrong I'm not butch by any stretch - just fed up going into garages and being judges for being blonde female - yo can actually see them rubbing their hands together thinking 'here comes my bonus'!!! I'm just of the mind to think that if you have a car then know how it works - but his has me stumped and didn't help with the BMW stealer giving me a bum steer on the timing chain & tensioner !! I'm really grateful for your help and patience
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:43 PM   #13
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p.s. my vanos unit is a sealed unit and already been onto Dr Vanos and they cant help as they dont refurb my unit they also said very rare for my vanos to go on my engine. so its back to the drawing board for me - going to test the vacuum pump at back of engine, heard the test is to start and wait for engine noise to start, switch off engine, unplug vacuum pump, start engine and listen for any noise, should throw and store codes but its an indication if noise not apparent when unplugged that its the vacuum pump. Also test the vanos unit by unplugging etc. and test the VVT unit with rocker cover off and switch on, but not start engine to see any adjustment it makes to the cam timing gear. Any thoughts on this?
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:50 PM   #14
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Exhaust leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightd View Post
maybe exhaust leak?
the only thing I have found at exhaust is a cracked front exhaust mounting bracket - would this cause referred noise. thing is I've isolated noise to area of VVT motor and this is next to vacuum pump too. Garage opened rocker cover and said wear to cam timing gear but there would be wear to any engine even at half my milage(35,500) so dont think its the cam shafts really, drives fine only noise is current problem. I would have thought that if it was the top of engine at cams the noise would be there at start up as no oil at top of engine on starting.
Noise only after about 2 mins and worse if taken up to 1800-2000 revs, know the vanos and VVT motor only kick in when engine warm - any thoughts??
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:58 PM   #15
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Vacuum pump....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmax View Post
Begin by isolating the source of the sound...if stethoscope doesn't work, try a section of hose. Also, all sounds are bad, though new ones, often mean something is going on.

But, are you sure you're using the right oil, have you checked for vacuum leaks? I'm not sure what the vacuum pump is you're referring to...we have a disa that rattles, a vent hose from valve cover (rocker cover) that cracks and attenuates internal engine sounds. CCV valve fails and makes noise.

I haven't heard of any severe issues with vanos (vvt), but then again, not many guys get their timing chains done at all, much less at your mileage. If you have the same sound as before that work, I guess that suggests that at least they didn't mess anything up. Timing is a delicate operation.

We're not that familiar with your engine here, but someone will be able to help you more, I'm sure. Also, check your regional forum for shop recommendations.

Good luck!
Vacuum pump as per real oem:

Vhttp://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=EZ52&mospid=47651&btnr=11_3178&hg=11&fg=15acuum

I'm not sure if you call this the DISA - just going by BMW parts names on real oem Number 2 in picture.

Is this a forum for only N42 engines - I assumed that the E46 forum covered the N42 and mine (N46)

the stepper motor is the VVT also called the actuator as per BMW real oem parts: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...96&hg=11&fg=15

Number 9 in this picture

The vanos is at the front of engine and no where near the noise I've managed to isolate unless the hexacil gear wear is affecting the cam shaft!!
nightmare!!
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Old 02-17-2013, 02:01 PM   #16
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Re: exhaust bracket--If it's the one I'm thinking of, it certainly causes a rattle...but you wouldn't think it's coming from where you think it is on the engine. Have you tried using a hose to isolate sound? Might work better than a stethoscope.

Oh, also, there's a heat shield on 'ours' that's part of the exhaust mani gasket...it's an aluminum strip that runs along the exhaust side, just below engine cover. It rattles also.

I'd take care of the exhaust bracket first as it's a known issue, and a 'real' issue. Exhaust is heavy, you want it supported fully.

HTH and thanks for clearing up your gender! That should help your getting help here! When the guys start clammering to see a photo of you and your car, just oblige them...no use fighting it! LOL

Welcome to fanatics, btw! ...and good luck!

Cross posted: I can't think of one post I've read where there was damage to either the cams or the vanos unit...other than wearing seals or that one rattling ring some models get.

I thought that actuator motor looked like it might serve a similar purpose to the DISA I have on my car...an intake manifold air adjusting unit...or in German, it means 'differentiated intake.' I have no idea what it does...just that your unit seemed like it might be analogous to the disa. I'm just guessing!
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Last edited by dmax; 02-17-2013 at 02:06 PM. Reason: Auto-save 1361131568
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Old 02-17-2013, 02:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Dont get me wrong I'm not butch by any stretch
Prove it
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Old 02-17-2013, 02:17 PM   #18
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Not familiar with your engine, but two things

1) That vacuum pump appears to be connected to the cylinder head, not the intake. I don't know it's purpose, but it's nothing like the DISA on the m54 engines.

2) VVT = variable valve timing = VANOS in german. I'm not sure this actuator part you're talking about is actually related to it as you say.
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Old 02-17-2013, 03:03 PM   #19
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E46 engine noise not tensioner

Please see attached BMW real oem parts pictures - No 9 is the VVT motor sits at about 3rd quarter frotn front of engine - straight 4 cylinder further away from bumper. It's above the cams and cylinders and controls/regulates opening and closing or cylinders with worm like gear lever which goes back and forth across top of engine: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...96&hg=11&fg=15

its also known as the stepper motor, but on real oem its called the actuator.

the vacuum pump is connected to the engine as can be see on this BMW real oem picture (No 2 in listing): http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...78&hg=11&fg=15

I believe that the vacuum pump can become noisy and rattle.

I'm open to any suggestions as my car only has 35,541 miles on clock and timing chain tensioner and guides all renewed - no difference.

Going to test vacuum pump by unplugging and also check VVT motor and even the vanos but its not coming from front of engine.
Thanks
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