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Old 06-26-2013, 10:52 AM   #221
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So basically gender has nothing to do with genitalia, it is simply a state of mind and what you believe you are. Dafuq?
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Old 06-26-2013, 11:36 AM   #222
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See, here's where you're failing to see how wrong you are. Professionals in the field (not you) assert that is not a "delusion." So, we have your "practical, salt of the earth wisdom" on the subject and then there's the opinion of licensed professionals. "BUT BUT BUT, the APA is a joke, they can't be trusted!" Yet, you link to a website who's aim is to "protect" marriage from the gheys as a supporter of your view. It's rather fascinating to see someone attempt critical thinking in this context. Keep at it, you'll get the hang of it eventually. Maybe.
I actually just googled APA bias and that came up. I didn't even know it was a pro-marriage website. I also provided other links, not sure why you are harping on that one.

For the record, I'm a unicorn. I demand unicorn rights.
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Old 06-26-2013, 11:39 AM   #223
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I actually just googled APA bias and that came up. I didn't even know it was a pro-marriage website. I also provided other links, not sure why you are harping on that one.


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Doing drugs and having sex... oh wow big deal. Well it is actually a HUGE deal.
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Old 06-26-2013, 12:14 PM   #224
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It's actually becoming quite abnormal. Do you consider pedophiles normal? Conjoined twins? Dwarves?

Being gay is also abnormal, but transgender is an entirely different situation because there is an element of delusion. You'd think I was insane if I legit thought I was a horse. However, since this deals with sexuality we're all conditioned to accept it. Go PC police!
So you think society should be structured solely around some definition of "normal" and no accommodation should be made for people that fall outside that definition?

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So basically gender has nothing to do with genitalia, it is simply a state of mind and what you believe you are. Dafuq?
Yes.

Gender identity is driven by genetics and is clearly not the absolute you want it to be. You think little boys look down at their penises, get a rush of testosterone and so run around like mad men and break stuff? You think little girls look at their vulvas in the mirror, and that thickens their corpus callosum so they can activate both halves of their brain as they learn to speak?

Is it simply impossible in your opinion that a person could be born with some mix of genetic programming such that their sexual organs are male, but their brain is female?

If this child's brain were shown to 10 neurologists, and they all IDed it as the brain of a female, would you still tell the family to get over it and compel them to force this child into life as a male?
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Old 06-26-2013, 12:22 PM   #225
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that kid has a rough childhood ahead of it.
+100
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Old 06-26-2013, 12:23 PM   #226
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This is an interesting thread.
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Old 06-26-2013, 12:30 PM   #227
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So you think society should be structured solely around some definition of "normal" and no accommodation should be made for people that fall outside that definition?



Yes.

Gender identity is driven by genetics and is clearly not the absolute you want it to be. You think little boys look down at their penises, get a rush of testosterone and so run around like mad men and break stuff? You think little girls look at their vulvas in the mirror, and that thickens their corpus callosum so they can activate both halves of their brain as they learn to speak?

Is it simply impossible in your opinion that a person could be born with some mix of genetic programming such that their sexual organs are male, but their brain is female?

If this child's brain were shown to 10 neurologists, and they all IDed it as the brain of a female, would you still tell the family to get over it and compel them to force this child into life as a male?
How is their brain determined to be female or male? What characteristics make up a male vs. female brain?

I think cases where the sex organs don't match the rest of the body chemistry are likely very rare. We are entering an age where society accepts these cases as very normal, so you are going to have people thinking they fall into this category when they don't. Stupid teenagers who are just experiencing normal hormonal changes (odd stage of life for anyone) will look at gender identity different than when previous generations grew up because the culture has permitted and even encouraged them to do so.

I had a cousin a few years ago in her early teens who told her dad that she thought she was gay. His response? "No you aren't." Turns out she wasn't gay at all...so where did she get an idea like that? I'm not saying this is how it works out every time, but my point is that our society is giving kids the idea that they might be these various things when in fact they are just regular ol' heterosexual, gender matching (physically and mentally) kids.
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Old 06-26-2013, 12:51 PM   #228
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How is their brain determined to be female or male? What characteristics make up a male vs. female brain?
http://www.webmd.com/balance/feature...-brains-differ

Its several pages, but is readable by lay folks like us.

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I think cases where the sex organs don't match the rest of the body chemistry are likely very rare. We are entering an age where society accepts these cases as very normal, so you are going to have people thinking they fall into this category when they don't. Stupid teenagers who are just experiencing normal hormonal changes (odd stage of life for anyone) will look at gender identity different than when previous generations grew up because the culture has permitted and even encouraged them to do so.

I had a cousin a few years ago in her early teens who told her dad that she thought she was gay. His response? "No you aren't." Turns out she wasn't gay at all...so where did she get an idea like that? I'm not saying this is how it works out every time, but my point is that our society is giving kids the idea that they might be these various things when in fact they are just regular ol' heterosexual, gender matching (physically and mentally) kids.
This kid is 6. Not an attention-grabbing teenager that's old enough to realize the potential controversy s/he can stir up by rattling the gender/sexuality can.

Besides, for every "turned out ok" story like your cousin, there's a "turned out very badly" story of a person that WAS gay but whose parents said "no you're not" and made the kid's life miserable, ending in crappy social adjustment, poor relationship skills, or suicide.

I agree that cases of sexually mismatched brains & sex organs are very rare. But that doesn't change the question. What do we do with the ones that do occur? Force them to live as we identify them based on their externally observable factors? Or allow them to live as their brain dictates they should live?
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Old 06-26-2013, 12:54 PM   #229
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Besides, for every "turned out ok" story like your cousin, there's a "turned out very badly" story of a person that WAS gay but whose parents said "no you're not" and made the kid's life miserable, ending in crappy social adjustment, poor relationship skills, or suicide.
Agreed, and not limited to sexual preference stories.

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Old 06-26-2013, 01:02 PM   #230
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Hmmm... But when does a child formally choose a gender identity? Is it not possible that this born male child favors more feminine clothing and toys but does not fully understand the concept of gender identity? It seems more like the parents are formally assigning what could be a child's innocent expression could it not?
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:10 PM   #231
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I agree that cases of sexually mismatched brains & sex organs are very rare. But that doesn't change the question. What do we do with the ones that do occur? Force them to live as we identify them based on their externally observable factors? Or allow them to live as their brain dictates they should live?
I see it no different than someone that is handicapped. We treat them with respect and dignity just like someone who had an APA-approved mental disorder or a physical disability. However, we should not be jumping out of our clothes proclaiming from the rooftops that this is normal and just another option of sexuality.

Also, the 99%+ shouldn't have to change everything to cater to them. As a society we allow reasonable accommodations (wheelchair ramps) and even (imo) unreasonable accommodations (untimed tests for ADD kids). You can disagree about the nature of something without being a hate monger. Some of you people seem to miss that notion.

When referring to hard, provable science, sex is determined by chomosomes. XX/XY determine sex in humans. Unless the new argument is that sex =/= gender, I don't see how someone born a male isn't a male. Sorry.

How can we say that people who believe they are the opposite sex is ok then throw pedophiles in jail for life? If we go by your science neither can control these feelings or preferences (throw gays in there too). If that person has a problem how can you morally justify punishing them for simply being born that way?
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:11 PM   #232
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Hmmm... But when does a child formally choose a gender identity? Is it not possible that this born male child favors more feminine clothing and toys but does not fully understand the concept of gender identity? It seems more like the parents are formally assigning what could be a child's innocent expression could it not?
Shouldn't surprise you that this child's parents were colorado moonchild hippies
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:14 PM   #233
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I see it no different than someone that is handicapped. We treat them with respect and dignity just like someone who had an APA-approved mental disorder or a physical disability. However, we should not be jumping out of our clothes proclaiming from the rooftops that this is normal and just another option of sexuality.

Also, the 99%+ shouldn't have to change everything to cater to them. As a society we allow reasonable accommodations (wheelchair ramps) and even (imo) unreasonable accommodations (untimed tests for ADD kids). You can disagree about the nature of something without being a hate monger. Some of you people seem to miss that notion.

When referring to hard, provable science, sex is determined by chomosomes. XX/XY determine sex in humans. Unless the new argument is that sex =/= gender, I don't see how someone born a male isn't a male. Sorry.

How can we say that people who believe they are the opposite sex is ok then throw pedophiles in jail for life? If we go by your science neither can control these feelings or preferences (throw gays in there too). If that person has a problem how can you morally justify punishing them for simply being born that way?
Pedophilia is not illegal. Child rape is illegal.
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:16 PM   #234
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Shouldn't surprise you that this child's parents were colorado moonchild hippies
You're right, were it a neo-con nutjob family they'd likely have just've beaten the kid into submission.

See how stupid that sounds? Good. It's exactly how you come off.
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:18 PM   #235
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How can we say that people who believe they are the opposite sex is ok then throw pedophiles in jail for life? If we go by your science neither can control these feelings or preferences (throw gays in there too). If that person has a problem how can you morally justify punishing them for simply being born that way?
From a utilitarian standpoint, all are examples of social deviance, but pedofiles do more harm to society than gender confused people. We do not punish pedophiles for their urges, its the act/expression of those urges which impede on the free rights of others(children) that is punishable.

What would you say are the tolls of the expression of this abnormal child and why would it be punishable?

Although I may convey the image that I agree with the courts decision, I personally do not agree. To go all out and make everyone else deal with this child's unique situation seems more of a burden than a blessing. Will we need to start to put urinals in the girls bathroom now to accommodate this child? The gender neutral bathroom should have been sufficient.

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Old 06-26-2013, 01:19 PM   #236
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So basically gender has nothing to do with genitalia, it is simply a state of mind and what you believe you are. Dafuq?
Actually, yes. If you think your nether region is the only thing that makes male and a female feel what they do, you probably need to go read a few books on biology. Ever seen a female that looks and sounds much less feminine than another female? You tend to find a lot more of those types in the gay community. I'm not just talking short hair or baggy clothes. There is a whole much more physically masculine aspect about them. Personally, I do not find that to be a coincidence.
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:26 PM   #237
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Pedophilia is not illegal. Child rape is illegal.
I am aware, thank you. Point is, if they were born that way shouldn't we be doing more to help them and to accommodate them? It isn't their fault, wouldn't institutionalization be more proper than prison where they are beaten and occassionally murdered?

I hope you see that I'm making this argument for a reason and not just to be obtuse.

I'd never advocate criminalizing transgenders or anything like that.
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:27 PM   #238
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To go all out and make everyone else deal with this child's unique situation seems more of a burden than a blessing.
That was kinda what I was getting at
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:27 PM   #239
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You're right, were it a neo-con nutjob family they'd likely have just've beaten the kid into submission.

See how stupid that sounds? Good. It's exactly how you come off.
No 6 year old can make this kind of decision
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:29 PM   #240
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I see it no different than someone that is handicapped. We treat them with respect and dignity just like someone who had an APA-approved mental disorder or a physical disability. However, we should not be jumping out of our clothes proclaiming from the rooftops that this is normal and just another option of sexuality.

Also, the 99%+ shouldn't have to change everything to cater to them. As a society we allow reasonable accommodations (wheelchair ramps) and even (imo) unreasonable accommodations (untimed tests for ADD kids). You can disagree about the nature of something without being a hate monger. Some of you people seem to miss that notion.

When referring to hard, provable science, sex is determined by chomosomes. XX/XY determine sex in humans. Unless the new argument is that sex =/= gender, I don't see how someone born a male isn't a male. Sorry.

How can we say that people who believe they are the opposite sex is ok then throw pedophiles in jail for life? If we go by your science neither can control these feelings or preferences (throw gays in there too). If that person has a problem how can you morally justify punishing them for simply being born that way?
Would you agree that the brain is what drives behavior?

So if someone is born with a female brain and male genitals, which are they?
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Last edited by Xcelratr; 06-26-2013 at 01:31 PM. Reason: Cant spell
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