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Old 03-05-2013, 02:49 PM   #21
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:30 PM   #22
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Since I've been doing a -30/-10 and dropped roughly 10 pounds in those 4 weeks, I'm wondering if I should up the cals on my workout days.
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:40 PM   #23
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Very good write-up bud. Personally I do disagree on a few points, but many will still find this very informative. Many people struggle in the beginning, but this will definitely help put them on the right path. Great post!
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:40 PM   #24
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Very good write-up bud. Personally I do disagree on a few points, but many will still find this very informative. Many people struggle in the beginning, but this will definitely help put them on the right path. Great post!
I'm working on an "example template" that can be tweaked to make this information a lot easier to understand and apply to your own lifestyle.

You know I respect your views, what are you in disagreement with as I am curious to know?
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:19 PM   #25
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Good stuff. I don't think your post is complicated at all, however, adding example templates would make understanding this even easier for those who aren't as familiar with fitness and nutrition.

There are a few points I don't agree with... Limiting carbs on rest days is not something I would broadly recommend. Too many variables can change what is considered "optimal". A quick example; Someone who is already on a low carb diet. Say he trains first thing in the morning in a fasted state and wants to time the bulk of his carb intake for optimal performance. Having "high" carb meals the day before could definitely aid him.

Cycling calories, carbs and fats from day to day I also don't feel is necessary at all since weekly macro-nutrient consumption is more important than a single day. There will always be nutrient overlap from previous meals unless the body is in a completely starved state. Considering this overlap, avoiding fat consumption alongside carbs is another point I disagree with. This is something that people like Layne Norton, Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald, etc., have gone into detail about.
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:53 PM   #26
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Good stuff. I don't think your post is complicated at all, however, adding example templates would make understanding this even easier for those who aren't as familiar with fitness and nutrition.

There are a few points I don't agree with... Limiting carbs on rest days is not something I would broadly recommend. Too many variables can change what is considered "optimal". A quick example; Someone who is already on a low carb diet. Say he trains first thing in the morning in a fasted state and wants to time the bulk of his carb intake for optimal performance. Having "high" carb meals the day before could definitely aid him.

Cycling calories, carbs and fats from day to day I also don't feel is necessary at all since weekly macro-nutrient consumption is more important than a single day. There will always be nutrient overlap from previous meals unless the body is in a completely starved state. Considering this overlap, avoiding fat consumption alongside carbs is another point I disagree with. This is something that people like Layne Norton, Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald, etc., have gone into detail about.

Good points, especially where carb loading and nutrient overlap are concerned.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:10 PM   #27
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:02 PM   #28
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There are a few points I don't agree with... Limiting carbs on rest days is not something I would broadly recommend. Too many variables can change what is considered "optimal". A quick example; Someone who is already on a low carb diet. Say he trains first thing in the morning in a fasted state and wants to time the bulk of his carb intake for optimal performance. Having "high" carb meals the day before could definitely aid him.
I agree with this, I think if you are going to try it its a "package deal" so to speak... you wouldn't want to directly switch to it after a low carb diet? is that what you meant?

The way I understand how it works without getting into too much detail is that you would store / burn your glycogen in a cyclical manner doing this. Assume you start this with full muscle glycogen. You lift heavy, burning away at the glycogen stores. Afterwards, you eat a diet heavy in protein and carbs, restoring muscle glycogen. You have a rest day the next day, and don't do any sort of training that could burn off this stored glycogen. Hence not needing additional carbs, your muscles are already "saturated". The next day you could train fasted without reducing performance, assuming BCAA's are taken. Do you find this way of thinking incorrect or flawed? Or is one day of low carb enough to reduce stored glycogen enough to impact performance in your opinion?


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Cycling calories, carbs and fats from day to day I also don't feel is necessary at all since weekly macro-nutrient consumption is more important than a single day. There will always be nutrient overlap from previous meals unless the body is in a completely starved state. Considering this overlap, avoiding fat consumption alongside carbs is another point I disagree with. This is something that people like Layne Norton, Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald, etc., have gone into detail about.
This I'm definitely interested in. Have read tons of stuff by these guys, and I know berkhan and them collaborate often. Do you have any reference to these details, I'd love to read.

That being said, would daily cycling of carbs/fats combined with intermittent fasting remove this overlap? Or is more than 16 hours in a non-fed state required? There isn't any magic here, it is sort of a combined bulk/cut cycle that when using the law of averages the results should be roughly the same over an identical time period.

I'll mention that I was skeptical giving hard numbers (like limiting carbs/fats to 15% on their respective days) considering how it is so individualized... there is no magic formula, it needs to be tailored completely. My hope for this entire thing is that it gets people to post progress threads and believe in the theories enough that a diet / training guide can be tailored to them without repeating information over and over again.

This is how I understand the benefits versus typical bulk/cut cycles:

Cycling Calories & Macros

I'm essentially summing up this post:

http://rippedbody.jp/2012/03/02/why-...-so-effective/

He does a great job of explaining theories (and a lot of this is just that... theories). He also links to berkhan and mcdonalds theories. I am skeptical on his "glycogen super-compensation" claims by the way.

-Lyle Mcdonalds recommends diet refeeds every so often to offset negative hormonal imbalances from everyday deficit type diets, leangains attempts to have "refeeds" 3/7 days a week to help offset these imbalances instead of taking breaks.

- By only having a surplus of calories on training days, combined with majority of these calories post workout, you are attempting to utilize as much of the surplus as possible towards muscle building and not fat storage. These calories being made up almost entirely of carbs (insulin) and protein (amino acids) further fuels this effect. By restricting dietary fat, you will have less to store while eating at a surplus / high carb intake.

- By restricting carbs on your rest days, you remain in a fat burning state rather than a sugar burning one (glycogen depleted state), assuming you've fasted for 16 hours. This also increases insulin sensitivity to set you up positively for your next PWO window. By eating at a caloric deficit you can shave off body fat on these days. (Again, is this enough time to rid the body of the previous days high carb intake is a good question that I'm sure has been answered somewhere).

That was really hard to sum up "shortly"... apologize for the novel lol. I'm sure I couldn't get everything I wanted to in there
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:07 AM   #29
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:34 AM   #30
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You're reading too much into my post, just like you're tying unnecessary strict eating behaviors to this.

Yes, you "can" store / burn your glycogen levels in a cyclical manner, but the protocol your posted isn't the only, or a better way to do it. It's just different. You can most certainly carb load successfully on rest days… After all, pre-workout nutrition is just as important as post-workout nutrition. This thread is meant to be a guideline, and setting some basic rules for calculating macro-nutrient needs to meet specific goals is great. As for what cyclical timing or meal frequency is best suited for the the person though, that varies greatly and shouldn't be part of a "beginner's walk-through" of sorts… Unless of course you include multiple protocols.

I wouldn't read too much into what gets posted on rippedbody.jp though… I believe Martin himself has mentioned that the site is very misleading. For example, he's using Martin and Lyle's recommendations on strategically placed refeeds to offset hormonal imbalances, but these imbalances come from days of being at a deficit. Not from every other day.

As for avoiding fats + carbs, a quick search yielded the following. Just a few examples, but still shows how some of the most respected nutrition / fitness gurus feel on the mater.

http://www.alanaragon.com/bodybuildi...ne-norton.html

http://alanaragon.com/carbs-fat-friends-after-all.html

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showt...food+combining

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...a-calorie.html

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=4605

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Old 03-07-2013, 02:50 PM   #31
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I agree it is different, not any better than a lot of proven methods. I think I'm such an advocator of it because the others didn't work nearly as well for me and my lifestyle. And I like to compare myself to the average joe, someone who wants to create a balanced healthy lifestyle not be consumed by it (what happens to a lot of people). I'm definitely addicted to the research though lol.

I'm all for adding additional advanced protocols, and the way this guide is constructed is easily manipulated. Perhaps a good idea would be to keep the structure of re-comp/cut/bulk from a calorie perspective (because that is ultimately what determines those goals anyways) and create an advanced section filled with different proven techniques for dealing with macronutrients, meal timing & frequency, and even lifestyle choices like paleo, primal, warrior diet, low carb diets, intermittent fasting etc. which would lead to education & personal choice rather than me just stuffing my preferred method down everyones throat. Splitting the sections would also lead to less information overload / confusion for beginners.

I read things and go "hey thats perfect for me" but for someone else it may be the exact opposite... I do realize this. There never will be the "perfect diet" for everyone, but there certainly can be for an individual I believe.

I like rippedbody because it does a decent job of summarizing martins methods for the masses. I also don't like it for the very same reasons, I think each individual should take the time to read martins website (I've read every article) and learn what matters and what doesn't, and also to apply it for their own benefit. Berkhans findings are far from "cookie cutter principles". Hence why he trains clients.

And thanks for linking those articles, honestly. Very very interesting roundtable discussion, just from a health & fitness standpoint.

I also read the Carbs & Fat article from Aragon as well.

But unless I am misunderstanding, this just furthered my belief in the effects of daily intermittent fasting. I agree, it would be a silly and pointless waste of time to eat high carb/protein with no fats for lunch, and then eat high fat/protein with no carbs for dinner. Similar to if you ate your meals from say... 8 am until 10 pm (14 hours + digesting time afterwards). There isn't much "nutrient separation" going on there.

But by separating the macros daily based on training, and also incorporating a 16 hour fast (aragon says majority of people are in a "fed state" at any given time so separating carbs and fat is pointless, but with IF you greatly reduce this state) ... does it then make that practice worthwhile? I'm going to try and find out myself when I get some spare time, I am curious... especially since I'm doing it.

As always, thanks for the thoughts
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:42 AM   #32
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Haha, me too my dude... If I'm not doing car or photography stuff on my free time, I'm researching nutrition and fitness articles. New data is constantly being published, and I can't get enough of it lol. I love applying any knowledge I pick up and seeing how it effects me.

I definitely agree and like the idea of keeping it simple for the purpose of this thread like you mentioned. Structuring it around recomp/cut/bulk, then having another more advanced thread that gets more into detail about particular protocols, frequency, forms of diet, etc... Seems like a much easier approach. Get them understanding the basics down, then start breaking into what may fit their lifestyle better. I know plenty of people who have tried to change everything at once instead of starting with some simple changes and building up their knowledge base... It becomes such a drastic change from what they're accustomed to, that they soon set themselves up for failure.

Regarding overlap and IF though, even if you separate the macros daily, doing high carb one day and high fat the next, you will still have nutrient overlap to an extent simply because you would remain in a "fed-state" from the previous day. You're never totally in a starved-state, especially with only a 16 hour fasting window. Nutrients are still being released into the bloodstream from previous meals hours later. It literally takes days for a person to truly enter a true starved-state. Martin I believe goes into this as well in one of his articles posted on leangains.

How are you enjoying IF btw? I did it for a few months as well, but have since switched back to my usual meal frequency (5-6 meals throughout the day).
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:52 PM   #33
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Just realized Martin Berkhan posts on Reddit...

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comm...erkhan/c3g14jf
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Old 03-10-2013, 04:03 PM   #34
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Haha, me too my dude... If I'm not doing car or photography stuff on my free time, I'm researching nutrition and fitness articles. New data is constantly being published, and I can't get enough of it lol. I love applying any knowledge I pick up and seeing how it effects me.

I definitely agree and like the idea of keeping it simple for the purpose of this thread like you mentioned. Structuring it around recomp/cut/bulk, then having another more advanced thread that gets more into detail about particular protocols, frequency, forms of diet, etc... Seems like a much easier approach. Get them understanding the basics down, then start breaking into what may fit their lifestyle better. I know plenty of people who have tried to change everything at once instead of starting with some simple changes and building up their knowledge base... It becomes such a drastic change from what they're accustomed to, that they soon set themselves up for failure.

Regarding overlap and IF though, even if you separate the macros daily, doing high carb one day and high fat the next, you will still have nutrient overlap to an extent simply because you would remain in a "fed-state" from the previous day. You're never totally in a starved-state, especially with only a 16 hour fasting window. Nutrients are still being released into the bloodstream from previous meals hours later. It literally takes days for a person to truly enter a true starved-state. Martin I believe goes into this as well in one of his articles posted on leangains.

How are you enjoying IF btw? I did it for a few months as well, but have since switched back to my usual meal frequency (5-6 meals throughout the day).
everything sounds good on paper until you try it yourself for sure, I need to look more into this macro cycling especially since I've been doing it for awhile.

IF has been the best thing I've tried so far hands down. I hated breakfast, was always hungry after eating it until lunch etc... and that combined with eating 6 meals a day was just way too much for me personally. This way I can eat a ton of food at once (always have loved large meals) and not worry about blowing my diet.

How come you switched back? Funny how things work differently for individuals
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:48 PM   #35
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"Everything looks good on paper until you try it yourself for sure"… Exactly! Funny you say that because that's how I sort of felt after being on IF for a few weeks.

After a couple of months of being on my bulk, I made the switch into IF. I purposely waited until I had been on a specific caloric surplus for awhile, and didn't change my macros at all. I did this to properly gauge how IF would affect my progress up until that point.

I get up at 5AM to go to the gym every morning and work until 5PM. So I followed the early morning fasted training protocol; BCAAs pre, during and post workout. 12-1 PM: I'd break my fast and started my 8 hour feeding-window, with my last meal at 8-9 PM. I followed this protocol because it worked the best with my work schedule. When I incorporate a "cheat" meal, it's usually when I go out for dinner with the girlfriend, so this also allowed me to include any sort of meal like that in my feeding window.

Eating larger meals was nice for awhile, but the more I got accustomed to it, the more I wanted. During my fast, I was never hungry. As soon as I started my feeding window though, I was never satisfied and felt I could just keep eating and eating. I still made strength gains which was good, but progress felt slow at times.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:53 PM   #36
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"Everything looks good on paper until you try it yourself for sure"… Exactly! Funny you say that because that's how I sort of felt after being on IF for a few weeks.

After a couple of months of being on my bulk, I made the switch into IF. I purposely waited until I had been on a specific caloric surplus for awhile, and didn't change my macros at all. I did this to properly gauge how IF would affect my progress up until that point.

I get up at 5AM to go to the gym every morning and work until 5PM. So I followed the early morning fasted training protocol; BCAAs pre, during and post workout. 12-1 PM: I'd break my fast and started my 8 hour feeding-window, with my last meal at 8-9 PM. I followed this protocol because it worked the best with my work schedule. When I incorporate a "cheat" meal, it's usually when I go out for dinner with the girlfriend, so this also allowed me to include any sort of meal like that in my feeding window.

Eating larger meals was nice for awhile, but the more I got accustomed to it, the more I wanted. During my fast, I was never hungry. As soon as I started my feeding window though, I was never satisfied and felt I could just keep eating and eating. I still made strength gains which was good, but progress felt slow at times.
This is how I am right now. If I go out to eat and get a burger and fries I am not even close to full.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:31 PM   #37
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seems like we are exactly the opposite when it comes to diet, I was never satisfied eating 6 meals (I always wanted more after each) whereas with eating 2 large meals a day I am always uncomfortably full, especially on training days eating chicken/rice etc. Glad you gave it the full effort, and I agree progress is a lot slower than traditional methods, but with some added benefit.

I wish I had a schedule that would allow for fasted training, I am really intrigued to try it.

I'm switching from (0/+40) to (-30/-10) beginning of April, so I thinking the first couple weeks I'll be hungry while I adjust to the lesser portions. Or maybe just comfortably full for a change! ~1500 seems to be my limit for a meal of whole foods, can't eat much more than that. Especially bread/pasta, really fills me up. I've ate a double big mac and double qtr pounder with cheese in one sitting and still felt hungry... goes to show the value of whole foods.

Edit: btw thanks for linking to lyles website... I've been reading all his articles over the past week, very well presented and interesting
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:01 PM   #38
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At first, compressing my usual 5-6 meals down into 2-3 larger ones made me feel so damn full… I would really have to put effort in finishing my meals. That quickly went away after a few short weeks though. I seriously couldn't be satisfied despite taking in large volumes of food in one sitting. So much so that on some days I would prolong my fast to eat more in 2 meals instead of 3. I do plan to give it another go during one of my cuts though just to try it under different circumstances.

Glad you're finding some useful stuff on Lyle McDonald's site. He's got some pretty good information on there. Regarding fasted training though, I've been doing so for awhile now. I was first sort of forced into it because of my work… Regardless, I now love it. I don't consider myself completely fasted, however. At minimum I'll have BCAAs pre/during/post. Then again, I'm also eating all day up into the moment I jump into bed, so there's also some nutrient overlap lol

I just don't have a full meal right before the gym. There's not enough time for me to digest some of it in time to hit the weight room. I could manage, but lifts like squat, deadlift, etc were just too uncomfortable to do on a full stomach. I sip on my BCAAs until I get back home and reward myself with a huge PWO breakfast after showering and getting ready for work.

You should definitely try it out sometime though.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:07 PM   #39
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5 weeks into a -30/-10 and I'm never really hungry... ever lol.

Sometimes I will eat just two meals and that will be more than enough to hit my macros.

I drink coffee during the afternoon, between lunch and dinner, and keeps me content.

Favorite snack right now: handful of salted Virginia peanuts.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:45 PM   #40
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dabears, i finally just read through your thread because i'm having a slow day at work. i've always followed the general bro-science guideline of 2/1 ratio protein to fat, both on training and off days. i aim to fill the rest of my caloric needs with carbs. what is your opinion of this guideline?

im gonna start your whole limiting fat on training days and limiting carbs on rest days thing soon. very curious as to whether it'll work well
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