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Old 03-05-2013, 10:06 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
That doesn't mean that private accounts aren't a better idea.
Ok? Again, deal in reality.



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This is an illogical parallel to draw. Entitlements are something for nothing. Taking deductions are keeping more of what you earned. It is far more noble to work hard and keep more than to sit on your butt and collect...regardless of what the Marxists will have you believe.
In it's current form they both cost the government money, unfortunately. When it comes down to brass tacks, all of us benefit from the government being there in some way, shape, or form. Entitlement reform absolutely needs a massive overhaul, don't get me wrong, but barring some massive reset button (which is highly unlikely) people need to deal in reality.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:07 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evolved View Post
Ok? Again, deal in reality.
That should not preclude the exchange of good ideas.

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In it's current form they both cost the government money, unfortunately. When it comes down to brass tacks, all of us benefit from the government being there in some way, shape, or form. Entitlement reform absolutely needs a massive overhaul, don't get me wrong, but barring some massive reset button (which is highly unlikely) people need to deal in reality.
Deductions do not COST money. Money is not spent by taking in less taxes. Money is spent via expenditures. If I took a 10k pay cut at my job I did not spend 10k. If I bought a 10k 330i I spent 10k.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:13 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
That should not preclude the exchange of good ideas.
Agreed.



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Deductions do not COST money. Money is not spent by taking in less taxes. Money is spent via expenditures. If I took a 10k pay cut at my job I did not spend 10k. If I bought a 10k 330i I spent 10k.
Fundamentally I agree with you. Unfortunately in our world of government, they do since expenditures and revenues are viewed separately. Less tax revenue and the same spending = more borrowing.
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:08 AM   #84
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Playbook of the big government types... when presented with a statistic they don't like (chronically unemployed for example), twist the discussion to "the elderly" (or some other group that helps compose of the larger issue) and label the conservative a jerk.

We have a SERIOUS issue with entitlement here in the US. It is RAMPANT amongst the youth of this nation and if you don't see that, then there is no use conversing further.

FWIW, I love how there is no mention of wealth inequality, in relation to standard of living, in comparison to other nations... we are SOOOOO far above and beyond most of the world. Don't compare us to paradise.. compare us to the norm. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
No we are not and we haven't been for a while now.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:06 AM   #85
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/\

no more out of control subprime lending, re-packaging mortgages, etc.

Of course this assumes big banks will act ethically, morally, and do the right thing

yeah right!
All companies will act that way just as soon as their stockholders and customers demand it.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:41 PM   #86
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Who here is advocating for that?
Wow really? Gee I wonder.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:05 AM   #87
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Video is liberal opinionated BS on what one person feels the way things should be.

Life is not fair, the world is cruel and what you put into life is what you get out of life.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:13 AM   #88
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A friend posted this on Fb the other day. Still don't get it. 9/10 Americans are uneducated. We knew that.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:56 AM   #89
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[QUOTE=Green_Shine;15231618]Video is liberal opinionated BS on what one person feels the way things should be. QUOTE]

If I viewed the video correctly, it wasn't simply just a liberals opinion alone (of course he has one, that's why he made the video, nothing wrong with that), but one backed up with some stats and facts reflecting the opinions of Americans in general regarding the perceived, proper and actual allocations/possesion of wealth in America.

According to the numbers presented, even conservatives/Repubs vastly underestimate what the actual wealth distribution is and their opinions of what a fair and proper distribution should be also is vastly more egalitarian than the reality.

Liberals/Dems do have a somewhat more egalitarian perceptions as one might expect, but those perceptions actually hew far more closely to the conservative/Repub views than the actual realities.

That, I think, is the power of this video (and other pieces reflecting a similar discordance between perception and reality on American wealth distribution), that even conservatives have it badly wrong in how they perceive wealth distribution vs. the reality. The other powerful aspect is that these misperceptions aren't just a couple percentage points off here and there, but rather, are vastly diffferent, approaching orders of magnitude at the extreme ends of the scale.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Green_Shine View Post
Life is not fair, the world is cruel and what you put into life is what you get out of life.
Of course it isn't, nobody's saying that it should be 100% fair, but for a functioning democratic society, there is a real and reasonable expectation that the opportunities should be basically equitable as might be reflected at the end of the day in the results of one's efforts and labors in terms of income and wealth. The problem is that people are beginning to think that the cruelties of the world are reserved for them alone while a small elite have manipulated our system to insulate themselves at the expense or disregard of the majority of their fellow Americans. Also, there is a growing perception and belief that most American's aren't getting out of their economic life what they're putting into it, that our economic system is a corrupted capitalism that has been effectively usurped by an ecnomic elite to disproprotionately favor and protect their own interests, wealth and well being.

While most Americans do agree with the broad, abstract elements of capitalism, they're realizing our system is profoundly different to their own great economic detriment. It isn't so much that people want free things or simple wealth redistribution as many on the right have crudely and crassly state, but rather, to have a more equitable share out of life for what they put into it and to be reasonably expect to fairly share in the wealth produced by our society.

Some will try to somehow brush off, dismiss and marginalize this data, but I think only at their and our country's risk in terms of long term social and economic stability. The clumsy and ham-handed Occupy Wallstreet is probably only an early harbinger of a growing popular realization and dismay with the actual scope of wealth inequality in the U.S. and what the means in actual terms for them. I also think this is why Romney's 47% statement had such a devastating (for him) resonance in the American psyche its impact on the election is only beginning to seep into the GOPs consciousness.

History, even U.S. history, clearly shows that such economic disparities will cause social unrust and even chaos, which, if one ascribes to a Burkian view of conservatism, is anethama to a stable functioning society. One need only look some hundred years ago to the social upheavals that resulted from the previous period of such inequality -- one we're surpassing now -- the guilded age. It was out of that period and general discontent that socialism, communism, unions, and eventually, the seeds for the large social programs and supports that rankle many conservatives to this day.

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Old 03-08-2013, 11:07 AM   #90
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i wish my purchasing power wasn't constantly getting eroded more than I can add value to it. who do I blame for that?
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:08 PM   #91
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[QUOTE=Rhumb;15231779]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Green_Shine View Post
Video is liberal opinionated BS on what one person feels the way things should be. QUOTE]

If I viewed the video correctly, it wasn't simply just a liberals opinion alone (of course he has one, that's why he made the video, nothing wrong with that), but one backed up with some stats and facts reflecting the opinions of Americans in general regarding the perceived, proper and actual allocations/possesion of wealth in America.

According to the numbers presented, even conservatives/Repubs vastly underestimate what the actual wealth distribution is and their opinions of what a fair and proper distribution should be also is vastly more egalitarian than the reality.

Liberals/Dems do have a somewhat more egalitarian perceptions as one might expect, but those perceptions actually hew far more closely to the conservative/Repub views than the actual realities.

That, I think, is the power of this video (and other pieces reflecting a similar discordance between perception and reality on American wealth distribution), that even conservatives have it badly wrong in how they perceive wealth distribution vs. the reality. The other powerful aspect is that these misperceptions aren't just a couple percentage points off here and there, but rather, are vastly diffferent, approaching orders of magnitude at the extreme ends of the scale.




Of course it isn't, nobody's saying that it should be 100% fair, but for a functioning democratic society, there is a real and reasonable expectation that the opportunities should be basically equitable as might be reflected at the end of the day in the results of one's efforts and labors in terms of income and wealth. The problem is that people are beginning to think that the cruelties of the world are reserved for them alone while a small elite have manipulated our system to insulate themselves at the expense or disregard of the majority of their fellow Americans. Also, there is a growing perception and belief that most American's aren't getting out of their economic life what they're putting into it, that our economic system is a corrupted capitalism that has been effectively usurped by an ecnomic elite to disproprotionately favor and protect their own interests, wealth and well being.

While most Americans do agree with the broad, abstract elements of capitalism, they're realizing our system is profoundly different to their own great economic detriment. It isn't so much that people want free things or simple wealth redistribution as many on the right have crudely and crassly state, but rather, to have a more equitable share out of life for what they put into it and to be reasonably expect to fairly share in the wealth produced by our society.

Some will try to somehow brush off, dismiss and marginalize this data, but I think only at their and our country's risk in terms of long term social and economic stability. The clumsy and ham-handed Occupy Wallstreet is probably only an early harbinger of a growing popular realization and dismay with the actual scope of wealth inequality in the U.S. and what the means in actual terms for them. I also think this is why Romney's 47% statement had such a devastating (for him) resonance in the American psyche its impact on the election is only beginning to seep into the GOPs consciousness.

History, even U.S. history, clearly shows that such economic disparities will cause social unrust and even chaos, which, if one ascribes to a Burkian view of conservatism, is anethama to a stable functioning society. One need only look some hundred years ago to the social upheavals that resulted from the previous period of such inequality -- one we're surpassing now -- the guilded age. It was out of that period and general discontent that socialism, communism, unions, and eventually, the seeds for the large social programs and supports that rankle many conservatives to this day.
Different strokes for different folks.
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:56 PM   #92
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[QUOTE=Rhumb;15231779]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Green_Shine View Post
Video is liberal opinionated BS on what one person feels the way things should be. QUOTE]

If I viewed the video correctly, it wasn't simply just a liberals opinion alone (of course he has one, that's why he made the video, nothing wrong with that), but one backed up with some stats and facts reflecting the opinions of Americans in general regarding the perceived, proper and actual allocations/possesion of wealth in America.

According to the numbers presented, even conservatives/Repubs vastly underestimate what the actual wealth distribution is and their opinions of what a fair and proper distribution should be also is vastly more egalitarian than the reality.

Liberals/Dems do have a somewhat more egalitarian perceptions as one might expect, but those perceptions actually hew far more closely to the conservative/Repub views than the actual realities.

That, I think, is the power of this video (and other pieces reflecting a similar discordance between perception and reality on American wealth distribution), that even conservatives have it badly wrong in how they perceive wealth distribution vs. the reality. The other powerful aspect is that these misperceptions aren't just a couple percentage points off here and there, but rather, are vastly diffferent, approaching orders of magnitude at the extreme ends of the scale.




Of course it isn't, nobody's saying that it should be 100% fair, but for a functioning democratic society, there is a real and reasonable expectation that the opportunities should be basically equitable as might be reflected at the end of the day in the results of one's efforts and labors in terms of income and wealth. The problem is that people are beginning to think that the cruelties of the world are reserved for them alone while a small elite have manipulated our system to insulate themselves at the expense or disregard of the majority of their fellow Americans. Also, there is a growing perception and belief that most American's aren't getting out of their economic life what they're putting into it, that our economic system is a corrupted capitalism that has been effectively usurped by an ecnomic elite to disproprotionately favor and protect their own interests, wealth and well being.

While most Americans do agree with the broad, abstract elements of capitalism, they're realizing our system is profoundly different to their own great economic detriment. It isn't so much that people want free things or simple wealth redistribution as many on the right have crudely and crassly state, but rather, to have a more equitable share out of life for what they put into it and to be reasonably expect to fairly share in the wealth produced by our society.

Some will try to somehow brush off, dismiss and marginalize this data, but I think only at their and our country's risk in terms of long term social and economic stability. The clumsy and ham-handed Occupy Wallstreet is probably only an early harbinger of a growing popular realization and dismay with the actual scope of wealth inequality in the U.S. and what the means in actual terms for them. I also think this is why Romney's 47% statement had such a devastating (for him) resonance in the American psyche its impact on the election is only beginning to seep into the GOPs consciousness.

History, even U.S. history, clearly shows that such economic disparities will cause social unrust and even chaos, which, if one ascribes to a Burkian view of conservatism, is anethama to a stable functioning society. One need only look some hundred years ago to the social upheavals that resulted from the previous period of such inequality -- one we're surpassing now -- the guilded age. It was out of that period and general discontent that socialism, communism, unions, and eventually, the seeds for the large social programs and supports that rankle many conservatives to this day.
Romney's 47% comment was pretty damn accurate. The problem is everyone feels entitled to success without working for it. In a nutshell I disagree with everything you said, the answers for wealth inequality can be found between work ethic and desire.
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:04 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post

Romney's 47% comment was pretty damn accurate. The problem is everyone feels entitled to success without working for it. In a nutshell I disagree with everything you said, the answers for wealth inequality can be found between work ethic and desire.
So, at least half of Americans are lazy, greedy, irredeemable wasters.

Perhaps the problem is that too many people are getting cheated out of success after working hard for it, what with all the new wealth being funneled up to just a few at the very top income/wealth brackets.

Productivity is up, hours worked are up, education levels are up, so it seems Americans are working hard, long, smart and well -- as they always have. However, wages have been stagnant or are down, so the fruits of their productivity is not being realized by most. So I would suggest that your simple, abstract wealth = work ethic and productivity equation has been subverted for the vast majority of Americans.

Good luck with that platform in the next 2016 election after having written off half the electorate in one fell swoop. Didn't work so well in 2012, but hey, keep at it. The Dems must get tears of joy when they hear the right disparaging and spouting insults to half of America.

This self-serving, narcisstic conceit of many in the economic elite may end up being their downfall in the end. Yes, they can buy a disproportionate level of political representation and power -- the GOP is already a minority party in terms of gross total votes, even in the House where Dems cumulatively won a few million more votes overall -- but ultimately, unless a political and economic system that more broadly serves the broad majority of American people is in place, the broad majority of Americans will simply vote for one that does, as is their right and prerogative. Polling already clearly shows Americans to significantly favor the Dem's/Obama's approach to the budget and economy, yet the GOP seems hidebound to ignore the will of the people in service to what interests? The future demographic trends are also pretty grim for the GOP as 2012 was but a taste.

So I imagine if they don't want to relegate themselves to permanent minority-party status, and the dimunition in power and influence that entails, perhaps they ought to rething and reformulate their policies, particularly economic, to be more broadly beneficial to the vast majority of Americans than has been the case. The broad economic policy trends of the past 20-30 years have been generally reflective of Republican/conservative thinking (supply-side, trickle down, low taxes, less regulation, etc.) and the results have generally been pretty pathetic for all but the very wealthist slivers of our society. American's aren't going to be economic chumps forever. I think the GOP/conservatives dismiss this and disparage the messengers/victims at their own long-term political risk.

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Old 03-08-2013, 02:15 PM   #94
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Romney's 47% comment was pretty damn accurate. The problem is everyone feels entitled to success without working for it. In a nutshell I disagree with everything you said, the answers for wealth inequality can be found between work ethic and desire.
And Nepotism, And Being a Legacy.
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:21 PM   #95
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Romney's 47% comment was pretty damn accurate. The problem is everyone feels entitled to success without working for it. In a nutshell I disagree with everything you said, the answers for wealth inequality can be found between work ethic and desire.


His 47% comment was utter garbage. I'm sure one could hear his campaign managers palms hit their faces seconds after he made the statement.
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:45 PM   #96
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And Nepotism, And Being a Legacy.
Nothing like starting life on third plate and thinking you already batted a triple.

Or, in the case of Romney, being born to homeplate itself (uber wealthy and powerful parents/family and upbringing), casually strolling back to third (Ivy league colleges), ball in hand (living off investments), then gliding back into home plate (well-connected corporate career) to pretend it was all his doing (awkward attempts to present himself as an understanding and caring candidate).

Gotta wonder if those who dismiss/ignore this yawning wealth chasm are fawning for some sort of neo-feudalist society with a few deserving worthies reigning over a complacent and compliant mass of serfs? Certainly seems we're headed in essentially that direction so if not desirable or unproblematic, why not more concern as to this clear trend?
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Old 03-09-2013, 05:46 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Green_Shine View Post

So, at least half of Americans are lazy, greedy, irredeemable wasters.

Perhaps the problem is that too many people are getting cheated out of success after working hard for it, what with all the new wealth being funneled up to just a few at the very top income/wealth brackets.

Productivity is up, hours worked are up, education levels are up, so it seems Americans are working hard, long, smart and well -- as they always have. However, wages have been stagnant or are down, so the fruits of their productivity is not being realized by most. So I would suggest that your simple, abstract wealth = work ethic and productivity equation has been subverted for the vast majority of Americans.

Good luck with that platform in the next 2016 election after having written off half the electorate in one fell swoop. Didn't work so well in 2012, but hey, keep at it. The Dems must get tears of joy when they hear the right disparaging and spouting insults to half of America.

This self-serving, narcisstic conceit of many in the economic elite may end up being their downfall in the end. Yes, they can buy a disproportionate level of political representation and power -- the GOP is already a minority party in terms of gross total votes, even in the House where Dems cumulatively won a few million more votes overall -- but ultimately, unless a political and economic system that more broadly serves the broad majority of American people is in place, the broad majority of Americans will simply vote for one that does, as is their right and prerogative. Polling already clearly shows Americans to significantly favor the Dem's/Obama's approach to the budget and economy, yet the GOP seems hidebound to ignore the will of the people in service to what interests? The future demographic trends are also pretty grim for the GOP as 2012 was but a taste.

So I imagine if they don't want to relegate themselves to permanent minority-party status, and the dimunition in power and influence that entails, perhaps they ought to rething and reformulate their policies, particularly economic, to be more broadly beneficial to the vast majority of Americans than has been the case. The broad economic policy trends of the past 20-30 years have been generally reflective of Republican/conservative thinking (supply-side, trickle down, low taxes, less regulation, etc.) and the results have generally been pretty pathetic for all but the very wealthist slivers of our society. American's aren't going to be economic chumps forever. I think the GOP/conservatives dismiss this and disparage the messengers/victims at their own long-term political risk.
I really don't know what to say to this, you lose your point when you start rambling on about the GOP. I don't agree with you, I agree with hard work. Household incomes took a dip when Clinton left office with a recession, Bush bumped it up until the bubble burst in 08'. It has been on a steady decline under Obama ever since. How do you feel towards those with a household income in 9% or 3%...Or even people in the 200k -250K?
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:41 PM   #98
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The jimmies are rustled with some in this thread. Be glad with what you have and if you don't like it, quit whining and change things yourself.
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:57 PM   #99
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The jimmies are rustled with some in this thread. Be glad with what you have and if you don't like it, quit whining and change things yourself.
Sound advice.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:19 PM   #100
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Be glad with what you have and if you don't like it, quit whining and change things yourself.
I'll remind you of that the next time you b!tch and whine about the govt.
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