E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > E46 BMW > General E46 Forum

General E46 Forum
This is the place to get answers, opinions and everything you need related to your E46 (sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon) BMW!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 3.00 average. Display Modes
Old 03-15-2013, 02:57 PM   #61
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 23,222
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDE46 View Post
Caster is pretty important to steering feel. It effectively adjusts mechanical trail. That's what makes your wheels turn back to center. The strut influences both caster and camber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_angle
Nobody ever disputed that. That wasn't the discussion
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 02:57 PM   #62
Dave1027
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: California
Posts: 967
My Ride: '06 IR 330ci zhp
Be advised that going with offset CABs to get more caster will also reduce the camber a little. That might be a good thing though.
Dave1027 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 02:58 PM   #63
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 23,222
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1027 View Post
Be advised that going with offset CABs to get more caster will also reduce the camber a little. That might be a good thing though.
Yeah I'm going to get Vorshlag plates anyway then caster can be whatever
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS

Last edited by Mango; 03-15-2013 at 02:58 PM.
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 03:04 PM   #64
WDE46
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Old Greg's Cavern
Posts: 9,389
My Ride: 2004 330Ci OBM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mango View Post
I'm not sure I believe the strut mounting method affects steering feel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mango View Post
Nobody ever disputed that. That wasn't the discussion
The statement above is what confused me. Were you guys talking about the physical mounting hardware, not the location?
WDE46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 03:05 PM   #65
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 23,222
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDE46 View Post
The statement above is what confused me. Were you guys talking about the physical mounting hardware, not the location?
We were talking about the way the strut mounts on the spindle of the E36 vs E46 vs E85 and how it affects steering feel, if at all.
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS

Last edited by Mango; 03-15-2013 at 03:05 PM.
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 03:20 PM   #66
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 23,222
My Ride: M54B30
Terra: on E46 front suspension refinement vs E36 according to BMW:

"The steering knuckles are press fit into the strut tubes which reduces the tolerances of the front suspension geometry."

The E9X uses the same design. I think it's just to save space. Steering feel, IMO, is going to come from the steering rack design/rigidity, pump effort, balljoint stiffness, chassis stiffness, bushing stiffness, alignment (caster), tire/wheel combination, low unsprung mass, and tierod balljoint location on the front spindle<--probably one of the biggest factors. Not trying to start a war, just my opinion based on observation and reading of suspension tech articles over the years.

Just for fun:

E36:



E46:



E85 Z4M:



E46 M3:



E9X M3:

__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS

Last edited by Mango; 03-15-2013 at 03:30 PM.
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 03:26 PM   #67
Zell
Registered User
 
Zell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: wow such city
Posts: 5,778
My Ride: Has no throttle
Think because it has that puck that it can support lifting without bending?
__________________
Zell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 03:40 PM   #68
TerraPhantm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mountain Top
Posts: 5,977
My Ride: 2005 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zell View Post
Think because it has that puck that it can support lifting without bending?
I've been lifting my m3 with that puck since I got it. I think the main lifting point is right under it.

Last edited by TerraPhantm; 03-15-2013 at 03:41 PM.
TerraPhantm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 03:40 PM   #69
ImolaSix
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 610
My Ride: '02 330Ci M-sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zell View Post
Think because it has that puck that it can support lifting without bending?
The other side of the puck makes contact with the subframe....I think.
__________________

Last edited by ImolaSix; 03-15-2013 at 03:41 PM.
ImolaSix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 03:42 PM   #70
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 23,222
My Ride: M54B30
I would upgrade to this for that reason alone (puck) but I'd need an oil extractor
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 03:44 PM   #71
ImolaSix
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 610
My Ride: '02 330Ci M-sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mango View Post
I would upgrade to this for that reason alone (puck) but I'd need an oil extractor
I still don't understand why BMW removed the center jack point from the non M.
__________________
ImolaSix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 03:46 PM   #72
cyberkaa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sunnyvale, CA <-- Ithaca, NY <-- dirty jerz (201) Useful Posts: 25
Posts: 136,484
My Ride: E46 332i,M3;E30 325i
Send a message via ICQ to cyberkaa Send a message via AIM to cyberkaa Send a message via MSN to cyberkaa Send a message via Yahoo to cyberkaa
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImolaSix View Post
The other side of the puck makes contact with the subframe....I think.
Correct.
__________________
-Kalim
(klx photo studio)

M3 drive train conversion (S54 Swap, LSD, 6MT, suspension linkage) | UUC Stg 2 Organic Clutch | OEM M-Tech II Kit
KW V2 | BBS GT4 RE | Falken FK452 | Alcon 6-pot 365mm BBK | M3 steering wheel | Powerflex bushings

Quote:
Originally Posted by koven View Post
i'd rather be gapless with no bulge
cyberkaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 04:04 PM   #73
TerraPhantm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mountain Top
Posts: 5,977
My Ride: 2005 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mango View Post
Terra: on E46 front suspension refinement vs E36 according to BMW:

"The steering knuckles are press fit into the strut tubes which reduces the tolerances of the front suspension geometry."

The E9X uses the same design. I think it's just to save space. Steering feel, IMO, is going to come from the steering rack design/rigidity, pump effort, balljoint stiffness, chassis stiffness, bushing stiffness, alignment (caster), tire/wheel combination, low unsprung mass, and tierod balljoint location on the front spindle<--probably one of the biggest factors. Not trying to start a war, just my opinion based on observation and reading of suspension tech articles over the years.

Just for fun:

E36:



E46:



E85 Z4M:



E46 M3:



E9X M3:

Well why did they bother switching it then? That's the part I'm not getting. They deliberately switched to the E46 style, and then the z4m goes back to e36 style mounting. Especially when the z4 non-M has the exact same suspension as the e46 non-M. And both the e36 and z4m just happen to have better steering feedback than the E46.

E9x I'll excuse because its front suspension is closer to the e39 than anything else. A lot more changed than e36->e46

Last edited by TerraPhantm; 03-15-2013 at 04:05 PM.
TerraPhantm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 04:11 PM   #74
Stinger9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: New York
Posts: 8,019
My Ride: '04 330Ci
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zell View Post
Think because it has that puck that it can support lifting without bending?
That's what the mad russian has always said:


http://m3.madrussian.net/diy_jacking.shtml
Stinger9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 04:12 PM   #75
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 23,222
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
Well why did they bother switching it then? That's the part I'm not getting. They deliberately switched to the E46 style, and then the z4m goes back to e36 style mounting. Especially when the z4 non-M has the exact same suspension as the e46 non-M. And both the e36 and z4m just happen to have better steering feedback than the E46.

E9x I'll excuse because its front suspension is closer to the e39 than anything else. A lot more changed than e36->e46
I think the single balljoint/control arm style is just being phased out. that's all. expect the newer Z cars to probably have dual link setups just like the 1M, M3, and everything else. More compact, efficient, and allows more flexibility both literally and technically. it does appear to be more complex though and likely costly especially when everything up front has to be aluminum nowadays. Parts have to be larger to achieve the same strength vs. steel so there's less room. Trickery!

F30 dual-link setup: (typical on many newer BMWs and other cars. Even the E39 is similar)

__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 04:49 PM   #76
TerraPhantm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mountain Top
Posts: 5,977
My Ride: 2005 M3 Coupe
^ that doesn't have anything to do with the e46 m3 -> z4m change though. Here's why I think there has to be something to it

Almost everything on the z4M was lifted from an M3 or CSL. Same engine, same brakes, same diff, same rear suspension. It is only the front suspension that changed dramatically. Track width is still the same. Wheel offsets are the same. So I'm perplexed by the motivation to change the shock mounting style if it doesn't save room or make handing or response better.
TerraPhantm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 04:52 PM   #77
Zell
Registered User
 
Zell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: wow such city
Posts: 5,778
My Ride: Has no throttle
Dang, I am gonna find a used reinforcement plate then. That makes lifting MUCH easier.
__________________
Zell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 05:21 PM   #78
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 23,222
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
^ that doesn't have anything to do with the e46 m3 -> z4m change though. Here's why I think there has to be something to it

Almost everything on the z4M was lifted from an M3 or CSL. Same engine, same brakes, same diff, same rear suspension. It is only the front suspension that changed dramatically. Track width is still the same. Wheel offsets are the same. So I'm perplexed by the motivation to change the shock mounting style if it doesn't save room or make handing or response better.
I think you're assuming that every change from the E46 to Z4M has to=improved steering feel. The chassis of the E85 coupe is a hell of a lot more rigid torsionally than the E46 coupe so that right there should increase handling/steering feel alone. The car is also lighter and lower.

Still not convinced that road feel or steering feed back has anything to do with the way the strut attaches. The strut simply rotates on top through a bearing and is the backbone of the mcpherson strut system. If you mean more vibration, then maybe i could understand since there's more of the strut body screwed/attached to the spindle?

Is there any documentation on this from BMW in the way of technical literature or otherwise? Of course I could be wrong, but just not seeing it how the strut attachment at the bottom alone corresponds to steering feel. If we use that logic, then I would think the 1M would have poorer feel than a Z4M or E36 M
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 05:36 PM   #79
Grande D
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dirty South
Posts: 3,376
My Ride: E90 M-Sport
Is the M3 plate made out of steel?
Grande D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 05:45 PM   #80
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 23,222
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grande D View Post
Is the M3 plate made out of steel?
Should be aluminum
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
control arm bushing, plate, reinforcement, subframe

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use