E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Political Talk

Political Talk
You may discuss anything regarding politics in this forum ONLY. If you cannot respect others opinions, your access to this forum will be removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-20-2013, 02:54 PM   #1
Lair
Modded ///Member
 
Lair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sea level
Posts: 321
My Ride: e90, cheap Boxster
Do you think they give a damn?

Interesting article.

Quote:
Iraq War vet pens ‘last letter’ to Bush and Cheney

By Dylan Stableford, Yahoo! News

An Iraq War veteran who joined the U.S. Army two days after 9/11 has written a powerful open letter to former President George W. Bush and ex-Vice President Dick Cheney accusing them of war crimes, "plunder" and "the murder of thousands of young Americans—my fellow veterans—whose future you stole."

Tomas Young, who was shot and paralyzed during an insurgent attack in Sadr City in 2004, five days into his first deployment, penned the letter from his Kansas City, Mo., home, where he's under hospice care.

"I write this letter, my last letter, to you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney," Young wrote in the letter published on Truthdig.com. "I write not because I think you grasp the terrible human and moral consequences of your lies, manipulation and thirst for wealth and power. I write this letter because, before my own death, I want to make it clear that I, and hundreds of thousands of my fellow veterans, along with millions of my fellow citizens, along with hundreds of millions more in Iraq and the Middle East, know fully who you are and what you have done. You may evade justice but in our eyes you are each guilty of egregious war crimes, of plunder and, finally, of murder, including the murder of thousands of young Americans—my fellow veterans—whose future you stole."

The 33-year-old, who was the subject of Phil Donahue's 2007 documentary "Body of War," continued:

I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I did not join the Army to go to Iraq, a country that had no part in the September 2001 attacks and did not pose a threat to its neighbors, much less to the United States. I did not join the Army to “liberate” Iraqis or to shut down mythical weapons-of-mass-destruction facilities or to implant what you cynically called “democracy” in Baghdad and the Middle East. I did not join the Army to rebuild Iraq, which at the time you told us could be paid for by Iraq’s oil revenues.

Young believes he was injured fighting the wrong war:

I would not be writing this letter if I had been wounded fighting in Afghanistan against those forces that carried out the attacks of 9/11. Had I been wounded there I would still be miserable because of my physical deterioration and imminent death, but I would at least have the comfort of knowing that my injuries were a consequence of my own decision to defend the country I love. I would not have to lie in my bed, my body filled with painkillers, my life ebbing away, and deal with the fact that hundreds of thousands of human beings, including children, including myself, were sacrificed by you for little more than the greed of oil companies, for your alliance with the oil sheiks in Saudi Arabia, and your insane visions of empire.

"When Tomas Young saw President Bush on television speaking from the ruins of the Twin Towers, his life changed," his bio on the "Body of War" website reads. "As his basic training began at Ft. Hood, he assumed that he would be shipped off to Afghanistan where the terrorist camps were based, routing out Al Qaeda and Taliban warriors. But soon, Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq."

In an interview with Truthdig.com, Young—who suffered an anoxic brain injury in 2008—said he had been contemplating "conventional" suicide, but decided to go on hospice care, "stop feeding and fade away."

He said, "This way, instead of committing the conventional suicide and I am out of the picture, people have a way to stop by or call and say their goodbyes," Young said. "I felt this was a fairer way to treat people than to just go out with a note."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...154541674.html
__________________

Quote:
Are you following him?

Yes.
Congratulations.
Lair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 01:26 PM   #2
vilseck21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: In La La Land
Posts: 236
My Ride: B_Cryus's mother
You join the Army to" follow the orders of the Presedent and the Officer appointed over me" which part of the enlisment oath. He made an oath to follow thoes order, and thoes orders were to go to Iraq. It suck what happend to him, but enlisitng in the Army is not risk free, he knew the risks at took them on his own. I am on year 13 of active duty, been deployed 3 times, do I agree with what we have been doing, mabey or mabey not, I am not going to put in my opinion on here about that. Have I done some things I regret, yes, Have I done some things that needed to be done, yes. Its all part of the job. Soldiers get wounded and killed its part of the job, mission, and honer to serve this country. Crying and fingerpointing about getting the losing end of the deal in such a way is disrecptfull for all the people that died or injured reguardless if the Iraq war was justified or not.

These people should be honored, and held to the higest esteem in our country, far beyond a politicin. These people should get the cair they neeed beyond what the hight burocratic VA system offers, these people need deserve housing if they cant work due to COMBAT injury, not just put away in a hospice. I am sure however he was medically retired so I would guess he is collection a month check, I wonder if he is bitching about that too?

Last edited by vilseck21; 03-21-2013 at 01:38 PM.
vilseck21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 01:30 PM   #3
casino is no lie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CDT
Posts: 76
My Ride: M54B30
It sucks he was wounded and paralyzed because of a lie that was perpetrated by those he trusted to lead.
__________________
casino is no lie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 01:31 PM   #4
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 01:40 PM   #5
Carskibum
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Posts: 3,116
My Ride: E90
Send a message via AIM to Carskibum
They acted on the intelligence at the time, pretty easy to look back a poke holes. Sorry for the solider with such injuries.
__________________
Carskibum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 01:46 PM   #6
vilseck21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: In La La Land
Posts: 236
My Ride: B_Cryus's mother
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carskibum View Post
They acted on the intelligence at the time, pretty easy to look back a poke holes. Sorry for the solider with such injuries.
The intelligence was known to be pretty much known smoke and mirriors, it was the justification for the war, most people in the Intelligence community knew its justification was pretty weak. The CIA was the pushing factor in this, but it came down to group think. I am in the middle of an Intelligence Operation degree, and work in the IC, and this has been coverd to great extent.

The problem is intelligence should drive action, in this case an action drove intelligence due to the predesire to invade Iraq.

Last edited by vilseck21; 03-21-2013 at 01:46 PM.
vilseck21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 01:49 PM   #7
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by vilseck21 View Post
The intelligence was known to be pretty much known smoke and mirriors, it was the justification for the war, most people in the Intelligence community knew its justification was pretty weak. The CIA was the pushing factor in this, but it came down to group think. I am in the middle of an Intelligence Operation degree, and work in the IC, and this has been coverd to great extent.

The problem is intelligence should drive action, in this case an action drove intelligence due to the predesire to invade Iraq.
Known by whom? Are you in the CIA? Some of you talk like you knew anything that was going on. The intelligence given convinced most, including Clinton. Based on the information at the time, most agreed with the war. Whether that information is false, faulty, purposefully incorrect, etc you will never now, so there is no point of armchair quarterbacking.
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 01:59 PM   #8
vilseck21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: In La La Land
Posts: 236
My Ride: B_Cryus's mother
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
Known by whom? Are you in the CIA? Some of you talk like you knew anything that was going on. The intelligence given convinced most, including Clinton. Based on the information at the time, most agreed with the war. Whether that information is false, faulty, purposefully incorrect, etc you will never now, so there is no point of armchair quarterbacking.
I have worked in the Intelligence Community since 1997, there were plenty of dissententers about the single source names "curveball" that lead to the war in Iraq. That source had been discredited previous by France, Germany and the UK. We used that source beacuse of our desire to invade Iraq. Even on the opearional side of the army we would NEVER act on unreliable single source reporting. Yes I do know, not only do I work in the IC, I am also in school pursuing a higher degree in Intelligence operations.

The CIA was the pushing factor behind curveball beacuse they wanted it to be right, not beacsue they knew it was right. Group think is pretty prevelent in the CIA,. It was later proved he was lying in order to recive money and to be taken out of Iraq for political reasons.

Last edited by vilseck21; 03-21-2013 at 02:04 PM.
vilseck21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:01 PM   #9
MDydinanM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 754
My Ride: is a ///M
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
Some of you talk like you knew anything that was going on. .
Pot calling the kettle black.

I guarantee that Vilseck and I know more about the subject than you do given our backgrounds.

you're right, hindsight is 20/20 but there is plenty of literature out there that describes in detail what happened and why - to include the naysayers that were pushed aside by the administration at the time because they didn't support that Iraq had WMD.

I don't blame Bush so much as I do Rumsfeld and Cheney.

Last edited by MDydinanM; 03-21-2013 at 02:06 PM.
MDydinanM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:04 PM   #10
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 526
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
Known by whom? Are you in the CIA? Some of you talk like you knew anything that was going on. The intelligence given convinced most, including Clinton. Based on the information at the time, most agreed with the war. Whether that information is false, faulty, purposefully incorrect, etc you will never now, so there is no point of armchair quarterbacking.
It is well known that group think and confirmation bias led to the intelligence used to support the intervention in Iraq.
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:04 PM   #11
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDydinanM View Post
Pot calling the kettle black.

you're right, hindsight is 20/20 but there is plenty of literature out there that describes in detail what happened and why - to include the naysayers that were pushed aside by the administration at the time because they didn't support that Iraq had WMD.

I don't blame Bush so much as I do Rumsfeld and Cheney.
I don't know anything. What I do know is that is the system we have. We have officials we put in charge for warfare. If they claim there is evidence of whatever, I can't really argue now can I? Do I agree with the war? Absolutely not. However, saying it was Bush's fault is laughable....as if Bush woke up one morning and decided to go to war with Iraq based on nothing.
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:21 PM   #12
casino is no lie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CDT
Posts: 76
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carskibum View Post
They acted on the intelligence at the time, pretty easy to look back a poke holes.
The intelligence at the time was plagued with holes. Simply because you and I were kept in the dark until years later does not negate that it was lackluster from the start.
__________________
casino is no lie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:24 PM   #13
MDydinanM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 754
My Ride: is a ///M
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
However, saying it was Bush's fault is laughable....as if Bush woke up one morning and decided to go to war with Iraq based on nothing.
Of course not. There are many, many factors that led to the war.

Last edited by MDydinanM; 03-21-2013 at 02:27 PM.
MDydinanM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:24 PM   #14
bimmerfan08
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 4,891
My Ride: Phoenix Yellow M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by casino is no lie View Post
It sucks he was wounded and paralyzed because of a lie that was perpetrated by those he trusted to lead.
And we're to trust the leaders today?
__________________
Quote:
The whole business of politics has been effectively subcontracted out to a band of professionals. Money people, outreach people, message people, research people. The rest of us are meant to feel like amateurs. In the sense of suckers. We become demotivated to learn more about how things work. We begin to opt out.
bimmerfan08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:43 PM   #15
casino is no lie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CDT
Posts: 76
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerfan08 View Post
And we're to trust the leaders today?
If you are a solider you don't have much choice.
__________________
casino is no lie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:44 PM   #16
vilseck21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: In La La Land
Posts: 236
My Ride: B_Cryus's mother
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
I don't know anything. What I do know is that is the system we have. We have officials we put in charge for warfare. If they claim there is evidence of whatever, I can't really argue now can I? Do I agree with the war? Absolutely not. However, saying it was Bush's fault is laughable....as if Bush woke up one morning and decided to go to war with Iraq based on nothing.
The problem is that the head of every 3 letter agency is put into position by the presedent. If the Pres states he wants intelligence to justify invading Iraq they will provide it reguardless if its reliable or not. My argument for this is to have a specific "devils advoicate" in each 3 letter agency desinged to attempt to disprove or discredit intelligence, if they can make a good enough case it will then make a mandatory review of the intelligence gatherd. Also the heads of the 3 letter agences needs to be inplaced by the legsliative branch not the executicve branch.

Thoes 2 chages would mitigate another invasion of Iraq fiasco

Last edited by vilseck21; 03-21-2013 at 02:44 PM.
vilseck21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 02:50 PM   #17
phrozen06
NA V8
 
phrozen06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 39°27'33"N 77°58'04"W
Posts: 7,513
My Ride: E46, E92 M3, R32 VW
Send a message via Yahoo to phrozen06
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
Known by whom? Are you in the CIA? Some of you talk like you knew anything that was going on. The intelligence given convinced most, including Clinton. Based on the information at the time, most agreed with the war. Whether that information is false, faulty, purposefully incorrect, etc you will never now, so there is no point of armchair quarterbacking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vilseck21 View Post
I have worked in the Intelligence Community since 1997, there were plenty of dissententers about the single source names "curveball" that lead to the war in Iraq. That source had been discredited previous by France, Germany and the UK. We used that source beacuse of our desire to invade Iraq. Even on the opearional side of the army we would NEVER act on unreliable single source reporting. Yes I do know, not only do I work in the IC, I am also in school pursuing a higher degree in Intelligence operations.

The CIA was the pushing factor behind curveball beacuse they wanted it to be right, not beacsue they knew it was right. Group think is pretty prevelent in the CIA,. It was later proved he was lying in order to recive money and to be taken out of Iraq for political reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vilseck21 View Post
The problem is that the head of every 3 letter agency is put into position by the presedent. If the Pres states he wants intelligence to justify invading Iraq they will provide it reguardless if its reliable or not. My argument for this is to have a specific "devils advoicate" in each 3 letter agency desinged to attempt to disprove or discredit intelligence, if they can make a good enough case it will then make a mandatory review of the intelligence gatherd. Also the heads of the 3 letter agences needs to be inplaced by the legsliative branch not the executicve branch.

Thoes 2 chages would mitigate another invasion of Iraq fiasco
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDydinanM View Post
Pot calling the kettle black.

I guarantee that Vilseck and I know more about the subject than you do given our backgrounds.

you're right, hindsight is 20/20 but there is plenty of literature out there that describes in detail what happened and why - to include the naysayers that were pushed aside by the administration at the time because they didn't support that Iraq had WMD.

I don't blame Bush so much as I do Rumsfeld and Cheney.
I also work in the IC and agree with vilseck21 and MDydinanM.
__________________

S65: 4.0 Liter, V8, 414 hp @8,300 rpm, 295 lb/ft @3900 rpm, 445 lb, DOHC, 12:1 C/R, crankshaft 44 lb, wet sump.
2 oil pumps,double vanos variable valve timing, EMS: MSS60, 8 electronically controlled individual throttle butterflies.
4 valves per cylinder, cracked trapezoidal connecting rods, brake energy regeneration. Ion-flow combustion monitoring.


Last edited by phrozen06; 03-21-2013 at 03:03 PM.
phrozen06 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 04:06 PM   #18
bostonsc4
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: MA
Posts: 517
My Ride: BMW 323i
Sucks real bad what happened to him, but you don't join the military to pick and choose what wars you'll be fighting in.
bostonsc4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 04:10 PM   #19
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: 3.5 Liters of fury
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by badfast View Post
It is well known that group think and confirmation bias led to the intelligence used to support the intervention in Iraq.
confirmation bias + groupthink =/= lying

just stating the obvious for everyone to take notice of
__________________
Gold Medal Recipient: Jimmy Rustling (2014)

“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 04:14 PM   #20
sammk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 378
My Ride: Bone-stock E92
More interesting and pertinent facts for those not smoking the strong Republican weed that's being passed around..

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinio...raq/index.html
__________________


E92 convert. BMW Fanatic.
sammk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use