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Political Talk
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:29 PM   #21
MDydinanM
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confirmation bias + groupthink =/= lying

just stating the obvious for everyone to take notice of
he never said that it was
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:32 PM   #22
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he never said that it was
I know he didn't, but it is heavily implied/outright stated in this thread and in this sub forum regularly.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:34 PM   #23
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It's too bad congress has no power to stop things like that from happening.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:40 PM   #24
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I know he didn't, but it is heavily implied/outright stated in this thread and in this sub forum regularly.
only from those that are not fully informed.

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Old 03-21-2013, 04:42 PM   #25
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only from those that are not fully informed.
well....yeah
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:54 PM   #26
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It's too bad congress has no power to stop things like that from happening.
We should not be allowed to drop a bomb or fire a bullet to start hostile actions agains another nation, however I belive they would have had congress approval due to deception
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:59 PM   #27
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We should not be allowed to drop a bomb or fire a bullet to start hostile actions agains another nation, however I belive they would have had congress approval due to deception
Only respond after being attacked as a rule? That's a little dangerous, and I'm a Ron Paul guy.
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:02 PM   #28
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Only respond after being attacked as a rule? That's a little dangerous, and I'm a Ron Paul guy.
As a civilized society we should never attack or kill any human being first, however if attacked we deserve the right to annalight the government and the population that does. It was effectiveness and the utter destruction in Germany and Japan in WW2 that allowed us to win the war in our tearms. The problem is we have become to worried about civilian causalities now. The last war we won was because we halted the will of the people to continue to fight. When ever we try to just strike military targets only, it just becomes a long bloodletting that causes us to lose lives needlessly.

Flame on
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:46 PM   #29
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It was dismantling the true believers in the German government while leaving the people loyal to Germany in place that allowed Germany to function after World War 2.
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:47 PM   #30
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Also, jus ad bellum
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:02 PM   #31
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Seems pretty clear from vilseck's last couple of posts that he holds strong views against military action. And that is perfectly fine. But I think I'll choose to discount his perception and interpretation of the intelligence accordingly.

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Old 03-21-2013, 08:10 PM   #32
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But I think I'll choose to discount his perception and interpretation of the intelligence accordingly.
and so what's your interpretation?
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:18 PM   #33
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It was dismantling the true believers in the German government while leaving the people loyal to Germany in place that allowed Germany to function after World War 2.
In a way not adhering to this concept is what turned Iraq into a quagmire. Once the US disbanded the police forces it was game over.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:19 PM   #34
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In a way not adhering to this concept is what turned Iraq into a quagmire. Once the US disbanded the police forces it was game over.
police, and the military - and now you have a lot of unemployed young adult males that are angry.

Paul Bremer, his team, and who ever else made that decision...

I think they could have removed the Ba'ath party and Saddam Loyalists without dismantling the entire military.

yeah, yeah, hindsight is 20/20

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Old 03-21-2013, 08:26 PM   #35
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police, and the military - and now you have a lot of unemployed young adult males that are angry.

Paul Bremer, his team, and who ever else made that decision...
Worst decision ever. I think if the police/military were never disbanded Iraq would have turned out completely different. The biggest thing was sectarian violence would have been minimum, the Madhi army wouldn't have the adversary it was, Iranian influence would have been minimized, and AQI wouldn't have been able to recruit at the levels it was. That single action, I believe, changed the entire course of the war.

Who knows, if the war didn't go so bad the issue of faulty intelligence may have not been such an issue.

Last edited by badfast; 03-21-2013 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:30 PM   #36
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Worst decision ever. I think if the police/military were never disbanded Iraq would have turned out completely different. The biggest thing was sectarian violence would have been minimum, the Madhi army wouldn't have the adversary it was, Iranian influence would have been minimized, and AQI wouldn't have been able to recruit at the levels it was. That single action, I believe, changed the entire course of the war.

Who knows, if the war didn't go so bad the issue of faulty intelligence may have not been such an issue.
there were a series a bad decisions, compounded by a disconnect in reality between what commanders were saying on the ground and what was being decided in Washington - irregardless of commanders urging otherwise.

I think the decision to disband the Iraqi security forces was the straw the broke the camel's back.

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Old 03-22-2013, 07:14 AM   #37
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and so what's your interpretation?
Since you asked, I will answer, but understand that I recognize my interpretation isn't really that important, since I am not privy to ALL of the intelligence that went into the decision making process. But, based on what I have read, both for and against the decision, and the fact that politicians (more on this next) on both sides of the aisle voted in support, I am comfortable the decision was the right one.

Vilseck and others here may be privy to more information than me, but without access to ALL of the intelligence, their their conclusions are not any more valid. Put simply, you don't know what you don't know.

As for politicians - It is the duty of citizens to have a healthy dose of skepticism about any decisions or actions our federal governement, so I don't fault people for having less comfort than me in this case, and I can understand they may feel this was a bad/incorrect decision. Heck, even I see pols like Hillary Clinton supporting the decision and I can't help but think she is doing so merely for politicial expediency.

I just find it ridiculous that people claim to know with certainty, when they cannot possibly be certain. Just like I find it laughable when people decide our politicians are liars because Saddam said he didn't have WMD. Really? You are going to give more credence to what he says over your own politicians? Because, you know, Saddam had no reason to lie, right?
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:28 AM   #38
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Since you asked, I will answer, but understand that I recognize my interpretation isn't really that important, since I am not privy to ALL of the intelligence that went into the decision making process. But, based on what I have read, both for and against the decision, and the fact that politicians (more on this next) on both sides of the aisle voted in support, I am comfortable the decision was the right one.

Vilseck and others here may be privy to more information than me, but without access to ALL of the intelligence, their their conclusions are not any more valid. Put simply, you don't know what you don't know.

As for politicians - It is the duty of citizens to have a healthy dose of skepticism about any decisions or actions our federal governement, so I don't fault people for having less comfort than me in this case, and I can understand they may feel this was a bad/incorrect decision. Heck, even I see pols like Hillary Clinton supporting the decision and I can't help but think she is doing so merely for politicial expediency.

I just find it ridiculous that people claim to know with certainty, when they cannot possibly be certain. Just like I find it laughable when people decide our politicians are liars because Saddam said he didn't have WMD. Really? You are going to give more credence to what he says over your own politicians? Because, you know, Saddam had no reason to lie, right?
I know it's not the same as OMG NUKES but they did find weapons that classify as WMD's in Iraq.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...ising-results/

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/interna...7pDf7AZ3RO9qnM

if you don't like news, how about hearing from our own Department of Defense

http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=15918

This is kinda like McCarthyism at this point; the story is more powerful than the truth.
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Last edited by Act of God; 03-22-2013 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:59 AM   #39
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The intelligence at the time was plagued with holes. Simply because you and I were kept in the dark until years later does not negate that it was lackluster from the start.
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The intelligence was known to be pretty much known smoke and mirriors, it was the justification for the war, most people in the Intelligence community knew its justification was pretty weak. The CIA was the pushing factor in this, but it came down to group think. I am in the middle of an Intelligence Operation degree, and work in the IC, and this has been coverd to great extent.

The problem is intelligence should drive action, in this case an action drove intelligence due to the predesire to invade Iraq.
I do believe that last statement there. I think they WANTED to get in there and did a bit of cherry picking. That being said, I do still think there is a difference between selective gleaning of intelligence as a means to an end and just fabricating things. (Please feel free to provide any examples of true fabrication.)
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:21 AM   #40
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I do believe that last statement there. I think they WANTED to get in there and did a bit of cherry picking. That being said, I do still think there is a difference between selective gleaning of intelligence as a means to an end and just fabricating things. (Please feel free to provide any examples of true fabrication.)
I don't think anything was fabricated, but things that in reality should have been discounted were taken to spotlight, and at the time it was not revealed how shady these sources or information was.
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