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Old 04-16-2013, 02:01 PM   #41
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Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it. It wasn't a secret that he enjoyed recreational drugs as well as performing enhancing ones.
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Old 04-17-2013, 09:15 PM   #42
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I agree on safest, but I'm finding through practice that it is far from the easiest, so I was glad to know my muscles aren't falling off me as we speak lol.

I think the fact I eat close to maintenance / majority of carbs & calories post workout three times a week on my cut will do more for LBM retention than protein consumption anyways

Ok, I had to go back and re-read the Protein Book since I'm cutting as well. There is a whole section in Chapter 4 titled "Protein needs during dieting". In short, it is claimed (and supported by some scientific articles, mind you, this is not an exact science) that even more protein is recommended during dieting since the body is in a negative protein balance (due to caloric deficit), and increased protein intake believed to compensate for that.

On the other end of the spectrum, when bulking, your increased carb and fat intake contributes positively to the protein balance, and you'd not need to additionally increase your protein intake.

Both points make sense to me.
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:50 AM   #43
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Ok, I had to go back and re-read the Protein Book since I'm cutting as well. There is a whole section in Chapter 4 titled "Protein needs during dieting". In short, it is claimed (and supported by some scientific articles, mind you, this is not an exact science) that even more protein is recommended during dieting since the body is in a negative protein balance (due to caloric deficit), and increased protein intake believed to compensate for that.

On the other end of the spectrum, when bulking, your increased carb and fat intake contributes positively to the protein balance, and you'd not need to additionally increase your protein intake.

Both points make sense to me.
thats very interesting, and obviously relevant to my current situation. i'll need to download the PDF again and read it, it's been too long. I'll come back to this

I'm still hoping the fact I eat almost to maintenance on training days will do a lot for muscle retention. In the past eating a straight deficit & high carb / low fat, 1g/1lb of protein, working out 3 days a week + 2 days of HIIT I lost hardly any muscle mass over two separate six month periods in 2010 & 2011... I just lost time that I could have used to bulk, because I dirty bulked like a fool lol.

Edit:

I found this Q&A with Lyle that seems to sum it up.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...ieting-qa.html

But also a great question from "Tim" that I wish Lyle would have answered

Quote:
"I understand that the physiologic requirements go up when getting leaner. Again, not what I'm asking. Yes eating more lean protein and cutting carbs is safer in the view of sparing lean mass because it ensures you get all the protein you need.

My question is simply about the total amount and whether 1-1.5 g/lb is necessary physiologically when dieting, not whether requirements increase when dieting or when getting to low body fat. Simply what is physiologically necessary, not taking satiety or anything else into account here, and not worrying about playing it safe?

In all reality this question is more theoretical since I'll probably stick slightly higher with protein to be safe, but people still seem to be misinterpreting my question."
From what the article I originally posted is saying, 0.82g per lb of LBM is already an "elite" protein level, and wouldn't need to be adjusted regardless of being on a cut... no matter how lean you are, thats the optimal amount. Looks like Lyle is disagreeing, but I don't see his sources based on this comment (maybe the book has them)

Quote:
Now, as individuals get leaner, protein requirement tend to go up further for reasons discussed in other articles on this site. As well, regular training tends to further increase protein requirements. So lean athletes trying to lose fat while sparing lean body mass loss need even higher protein intakes than this. And we've known for decades now that caloric intake per se tends to impact on protein requirements; as caloric intake goes down, protein requirements go up. And vice versa.

While less data on this group is available, bodybuilders and athletes have long used a protein intake of 2.2 g/kg (1 g/lb) lean body mass as a generalized intake level and as folks get very lean, intakes of 3.3 g/kg (1.5 g/lb) of lean body mass may be required to stave off muscle loss while dieting. In some very extreme cases, such as the near protein only diet approach of my own Rapid Fat Loss Handbook even higher protein intakes may be required for very lean individuals.
I don't like how he uses bodybuilders as a source, there isn't really any studies he discussed to back up the 1 g/lb, or 1.5g/lb... he acknowledges this with the "less data on this group is available" comment. Essentially I have the same concerns that Tim does, unfortunately Lyle didn't write a reply (would be very interesting to hear).

I also think we need to consider the protein book was written back in 09, and this article mainly references a study completed in 2011. Be interesting to see if Lyle has commented on this study, I couldn't find anything.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:31 AM   #44
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Found another great article, in-line with all the discussion here.

http://borgefagerli.com/the-final-word-on-protein/

Cliffs:

Quote:
Practical recommendations, based on the above research and my opinion and experience:

25-40g of whole food protein per meal x 3-4 meals per day. The final meal of the day could have a higher protein intake of 30-60g with the inclusion of a "slow" protein source such as eggs or casein.
Add in some (optional) pre-workout whey(15-25g) or BCAAs (4-8g).

Post-workout, have a whey+casein blend, 20-30g worth. If you're having a whole food meal within an hour, that's perfectly fine and you could just have a small amount of whey and some fruits when leaving the gym, then cook and eat when you get home. Or have your girlfriend/boyfriend do it for you, gotta recover those arms, obviously. The 3-4 meal recommendation includes this post-workout protein feeding (either whey+casein or whey with a whole food meal within an hour), but 5 meals is also feasible if you have particularly long days.

Total protein intake - and I usually don't count protein from carbs or fat sources, except eggs - is going to be around 1,5-2g/kg bodyweight or even 1,2-1,5 with the predominant use of high-quality whey or milk proteins. This is probably quite a bit lower than what you're doing now and have been led to believe is needed, and also quite a bit lower than what I've recommended in the past. The benefits - less digestion issues, saves $$$, and makes room for more carbs and fats in your diet - are worth it. You're not going to lose muscle, and you might even gain some muscle (not sufficient research yet, but there are certain indicators).

If you're restricting calories for fat loss, there are so many benefits of a higher protein intake (satiety and thermic effect to name a couple), that I think you should increase the recommendations given by 20-30% (2-2,5g/kg bodyweight).
I disagree with limiting protein intake to 40g per meal btw, as a "blanket" recommendation anyways.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:35 AM   #45
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Heard the other day excessive protein intake actually destroys your kidneys... thoughts?
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:38 AM   #46
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Heard the other day excessive protein intake actually destroys your kidneys... thoughts?
I heard that too but I think it's something to worry about if you're getting way way too much. Like protein shakes all day.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:40 AM   #47
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Guaranteed that has something to do with protein supplements, not from natty sources.
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:23 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dabears View Post

Edit:

I found this Q&A with Lyle that seems to sum it up.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...ieting-qa.html

But also a great question from "Tim" that I wish Lyle would have answered
Lyle is not the type to answer all questions, and when he does, it usually doesn't end well lol...

Let me answer instead, since it's pretty straightforward, and justification of amounts is given in his book. Whether there is a physiological requirement of that much protein depends on many factors (and debatable at best), especially your gender, and the type of sport you do. Lyle's recommendation for habitual male strength/power athletes is around 1.1-1.4 grams per pound of lbs (not per LBM). For dieting males (still lifting), this recommendation is increased to 1.4-1.5 grams per lbs. We fall into the power/strength/lifting category. For endurance athletes, numbers are different.

Where does these numbers come from? Is he pulling these out of his ass? Apparently not. He first starts calculating protein requirement for sedentary non-exercising individuals, which is around 33 grams. This is also the recommended daily intake (RDI) by the FDA. This is his starting point. Then he adds in different factors: gender, type of sport you do, dieting/not dieting, etc. and he arrives at the numbers I quoted above using simple math. He takes into account digestibility, oxidation, types of AAs used in muscle growth, and most importantly shortcomings of nitrogen balance studies. He basically chooses to err on the side of too much protein vs. too low.

Again, this is not an exact science, so everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt...
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:36 PM   #49
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Ok, and I can agree with the caution side. I just wish there was a direct study result to show the minimum requirement (most likely too individual to happen).

All I know is that eating 1500 calories on my rest days and weighing 177 lbs there is no way I'm getting 180g let alone 270g eating the natural foods I like to. At the 1g/1lb thats half my daily allotment just in protein (50%)... it isn't crazy and I've achieved it, but that is the pinnacle at that calorie level for me. And at 1.5g that's almost 75% of my calories coming from protein. I just don't find it realistic! Other than eating straight boneless skinless chicken breast & whey protein (like a lot of people actually do), you won't find those kind of macronutrient ratios in any natural foods. For that reason I'm going to stick with my current nutritional makeup and monitor my strength levels diligently in case they start to drop.

Whey protein intake makes this so easy, I always get 1g/1lb on my 2000 calorie training days... 2 scoops = 50g, and only 240 calories. But I only believe in its use as a post workout tool unfortunately, just a personal thing.
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Old 04-18-2013, 03:08 PM   #50
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how does one figure out lean body mass?
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Old 04-18-2013, 03:14 PM   #51
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Yeah, unfortunately it's what it is. I am staying below 1500 Cal by eating just a little less than 200/100/50 PRO/CHO/FAT. I weigh about 165 now. So far it's working fine and I know that I am not loosing much LBM as my numbers either stay the same or even improve a bit.

His rapid fast loss and stubborn fat protocols are even crazier. Basically low carb/low fat/high protein and stay below 1000 calories, fasted cardio, etc. Go figure!

I wouldn't even take them seriously if it wasn't for the refeeds and carbups lol... I just hope I'll be lean enough some day to do the SPF though...

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Old 04-18-2013, 03:15 PM   #52
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how does one figure out lean body mass?
(100 - body fat percentage) x weight / 100.

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Old 04-18-2013, 03:26 PM   #53
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Yeah, unfortunately it's what it is. I am staying below 1500 Cal by eating just a little less than 200/100/50 PRO/CHO/FAT. I weigh about 165 now. So far it's working fine and I know that I am not loosing much LBM as my numbers either stay the same or even improve a bit.

His rapid fast loss and stubborn fat protocols are even crazier. Basically low carb/low fat/high protein and stay below 1000 calories, fasted cardio, etc. Go figure!

I wouldn't even take them seriously if it wasn't for the refeeds and carbups lol... I just hope I'll be lean enough some day to do the SPF though...

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what do your meals consist of to hit those targets? I'm curious. good job.

yeah I've taken a relative patience when it comes to bulking and cutting... I'm in this for the long haul. There are methods that work but they just seem crazy to me lol
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Old 04-18-2013, 04:08 PM   #54
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what do your meals consist of to hit those targets? I'm curious. good job.

yeah I've taken a relative patience when it comes to bulking and cutting... I'm in this for the long haul. There are methods that work but they just seem crazy to me lol
Sample workout day (grams of protein in parenthesis):

Morning/pre-workout:
1. Whey shake with 1 cup of fat free milk (33g)
2. 3 egg whites omelette with cooking spray or 3 hard boiled egg whites (10.5g)
3. 2 chicken egg rolls (22 g). Confucius brand. These are yum if you don't use microwave to heat them up lol!
4. Some high glycemic index carbs pre-workout (half a pack of m&m's or a chocolate bar worth about 200 cals).

Post-workout/lunch:
1. A whey shake OR 1 cup of fat free Greek yogurt, OR some combination of fast AND slow proteins (23-24g). The latter could be a whey-casein shake or whey shake with some fat free Greek yogurt.
2. 4 oz of 96/4 ground beef, home cooked with veggies, roll up in medium size soft tortilla (24g).

Snack:
A can of tuna (32 g) or a can of anchovies (18g) (you need to marinate anchovies in balsamic vinegar overnight, and then drain the vinegar before eating them, otherwise they're salty as fvck).

Dinner:
1. Chicken breast about 8oz (48g?)
2. A small salad (not always).

Before bed:
1. Casein shake (24g)
2. 1 tbsp peanut butter.

1000 fish oil with every meal above.

Rest days don't get the post-workout whey shake/greek yogurt. Also the morning whey shake is without the fat free milk due to the sugar involved. Otherwise similar. I rinse and repeat this 5 days a week (only 3 days/week workout MWF before or around noon), switch ground beef with chicken, replace them with a half sandwich with some turkey breast worth about 25 grams of protein if neither is available, etc.

The good thing with the above diet is I only pay attention to my protein intake, which turns out to be around 170-210 grams a day (rest/work-out), and carbs/fats always end up being less than 100/50. No need to count them really. I log everything in myfitnesspal, and that's what the count is like all the time.

On Friday evenings I start carbing up and continue until Sunday breakfast. I eat a ~3/4ths loaf of Ecce Panis bread (110 grams of carb) + some red wine + olive oil + steak or 8-10 oz chicken for Friday's dinner. End up getting about 300-400 grams of carbs by Sunday morning. This is basically to restore hormonal balance, increase metabolism, and restore muscle glycogen.



EDIT: I also take an EC stack regularly at the recommended dosage of 20mg/200mg three times daily 4 hours apart. Last dosage is no later than 5pm.
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Old 04-18-2013, 04:30 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by SeanC View Post
Sample workout day (grams of protein in parenthesis):

Morning/pre-workout:
1. Whey shake with 1 cup of fat free milk (33g)
2. 3 egg whites omelette with cooking spray or 3 hard boiled egg whites (10.5g)
3. 2 chicken egg rolls (22 g). Confucius brand. These are yum if you don't use microwave to heat them up lol!
4. Some high glycemic index carbs pre-workout (half a pack of m&m's or a chocolate bar worth about 200 cals).

Post-workout/lunch:
1. A whey shake OR 1 cup of fat free Greek yogurt, OR some combination of fast AND slow proteins (23-24g). The latter could be a whey-casein shake or whey shake with some fat free Greek yogurt.
2. 4 oz of 96/4 ground beef, home cooked with veggies, roll up in medium size soft tortilla (24g).

Snack:
A can of tuna (32 g) or a can of anchovies (18g) (you need to marinate anchovies in balsamic vinegar overnight, and then drain the vinegar before eating them, otherwise they're salty as fvck).

Dinner:
1. Chicken breast about 8oz (48g?)
2. A small salad (not always).

Before bed:
1. Casein shake (24g)
2. 1 tbsp peanut butter.

1000 fish oil with every meal above.

Rest days don't get the post-workout whey shake/greek yogurt. Also the morning whey shake is without the fat free milk due to the sugar involved. Otherwise similar. I rinse and repeat this 5 days a week (only 3 days/week workout MWF before or around noon), switch ground beef with chicken, replace them with a half sandwich with some turkey breast worth about 25 grams of protein if neither is available, etc.

The good thing with the above diet is I only pay attention to my protein intake, which turns out to be around 170-210 grams a day (rest/work-out), and carbs/fats always end up being less than 100/50. No need to count them really. I log everything in myfitnesspal, and that's what the count is like all the time.

On Friday evenings I start carbing up and continue until Sunday breakfast. I eat a ~3/4ths loaf of Ecce Panis bread (110 grams of carb) + some red wine + olive oil + steak or 8-10 oz chicken for Friday's dinner. End up getting about 300-400 grams of carbs by Sunday morning. This is basically to restore hormonal balance, increase metabolism, and restore muscle glycogen.



EDIT: I also take an EC stack regularly at the recommended dosage of 20mg/200mg three times daily 4 hours apart. Last dosage is no later than 5pm.
Hey great stuff! Reminds me of my exact cutting diet I used (with great success) over the past two years to lose ~20 lbs each time, over a period of 5-6 months. How long have you been on it? And yeah, I like to think of it like an equation... if you meet your protein and calorie goals, everything else will fall in line. Essentially the IIFYM stance makes sense, although I believe both you and I don't have exact carb/fat targets.

Unfortunately I've tried to do my best to adhere to the primal lifestyle since last summer (and I am also lactose intolerant), and things like pasta, bread, cereal, casein, beans, and most dairy I consider cheat meals. Just a personal overall health belief that handicaps me in the "strength gaining" world. I followed leangains religiously throughout the winter, and found the only way to get the recommended carb intake (300g+) on training days was to include pasta and bread... which I did, and it worked....

However I've been unable to find any sort of legit source that backs up carb/fat cycling between training and rest days, so I've decided I won't be continuing it, even on a bulk as I do not believe in that type of refined food. I'll be getting 100g or less on rest days from fruits and vegetables, and that 100g + the sugars in my PWO shake + rice/potatoes on training days. I'm doing that for my cut presently, and have continued to go up in strength, no fatigue or lack of energy.

I'm essentially going out on a limb with all the knowledge I've gathered, and making myself a human guinea pig with my own beliefs. Hope it works
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Old 04-18-2013, 06:11 PM   #56
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I've been on it for 2 months give or take a few days. However, I only started logging my progress since the 28th of last month (thanks to your sticky by the way, I had myfitnesspal on my phone, but never gotten around to using it until then), which shows a net loss of about 6 lbs since the 28th. Not a bad progress in about three weeks

And you're right everybody is different. I don't do well on carb-heavy diets, but I recently figured it was fat that I needed to keep an eye out for (or say hi to dirty bulking lol). Lyle's books helped me a lot as well. I feel like I have a better understanding of the human physiology/metabolism and the role of hormones in general. Previously I lost 40+ lbs on Atkins (about 10 years ago), and then another 40+ lbs about 4 years ago on a purely caloric diet without watching my macros. I am still a noob, but hopefully not that as much as I'd been in the past

But no worries bro, we're all gonna make it lol!
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:37 AM   #57
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were all gonna make it brahs

Damn I haven't seen this video in a while...

I don't know how much time elapsed, but he looks much older in this one. Not sure if the drugs took hold yet lol

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