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Old 04-12-2013, 07:56 AM   #21
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You still don't understand what it is to rig a game. The game is rigged. The more money you start out with, the better your chances of success. Conversely, the less money you start out with, the lower your chances of success.

You (and the GOP) need to get that through your heads. As soon as you understand, yes, the system is rigged. That doesn't mean auto-failure. But it does mean those on the bottom are more likely to stay on the bottom. It means that if the kid who starts out in the economic bottom 20% works as hard as the kid who starts out in the economic top 20%, chances are amazingly high that the kid that started out in the top 20% is going to fair better, even if they work equally as hard. That is how the system works. If you start near the bottom of the economic ladder, your best chance is just to try and do better and maybe your next generation can start out at the 30% or 50% mark on the economic ladder. Yeah, there are going to be those that "land on chance or the community chest" and make that economic leap in a single generation. But, those odds are slim. (Lets face it, they are.)
That is a terrible analogy and assumes one is incapable of achieving even with perseverance. You say the GOP needs to understand the game is rigged? Well, I say you liberals need to stop with the defeat before effort or just let the GOP adopt your ****ing kids.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:03 AM   #22
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Rand Paul had good intentions, but his game plan was shitty. And part of the reason why is because he is a person of great privilege who isn't used to talking to people who have faced a lot more adversity growing up than most white people in the country.

There is a winning Republican message that can be made to blacks and other minorities. But the Republican Party, for a host of reasons, can't effectively market that message.
@ white people
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:19 AM   #23
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^ Agreed with the comment quoted.

How can we sell the idea of national fiscal responsibility to folks who in no way live it in their own lives day to day?
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:22 AM   #24
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**** that, to assume only people other than Caucasin can face adversity is absurd. Additionally, Rand was speaking to a group of people who are privileged enough to attend college so either they had good parents or the kids figured out the what **** is really going in the world and made that college happen on their own, right?
Ah, yeah. But college still isn't a guarantee of success. They're still going to face discrimination and prejudice for the rest of their working lives.

Look at it this way, the average black college graduate makes 52k per year. The average white college graduate makes 73k per year. Source: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpsta...pinc04_000.htm

If a black person looks at that data, how do you think they would explain that income disparity? That they are less hard working than whites? That they're less intelligent than whites? Chances are, they'll think that because whites have always been the dominant (and therefore normal) racial demographic in the United States, that they have an ingrained advantage in our current economic system.

When black people go into a job interview, they have to contend with a lot of baggage associated with their race. Because black people have stereotypes on their work ethic, attitude, speech that get engrained both in their minds and the mind of their prospective employer. If you think that doesn't exist or that it doesn't affect outcomes, you're wrong. It does.

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wow, Azn jimmies rustled. My family came here with nothing. My parents didn't go to college. One (immigrant) grandfather was a bartender, the other (immigrant) ran a junk shop. Yes, I'm so privileged...douche.
The color of your skin has no important stigmas attached to it. With blacks it's a much different story. That is the type of privilege minorities talk about when they talk about white privilege. The privilege to not be prejudged solely on the color of their skin.

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The fact that those kids are going to college probably means they will be better off than the average black in America. Those are the exact kids that can go far with hard work. The last thing they need (or anyone) is pretentious clueless academics telling them that without government they can't make it. You're doing the same thing.

A black kid growing up in the ghetto with a drug addict single mom has the same chance as a white kid growing up in the sticks with a drug addict single mom. This has nothing to do with color, except you want it to be nothing but color. I find it insulting that you assume that every white kid is well off and could never face the adversity of a poor minority. Looks like you harbor some serious biases, you should talk to someone about it.
You're wrong. The white kid growing up poor with a drug addicted single mom has a better chance of making it in life. White people, across every significant measurable socioeconomic status, do better than black people. And it's not because they're more intelligent and hardworking.

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Oh yeah, how about Rand Paul's (correct) argument that "free" education makes education unaffordable? Are you able to comprehend this?
I do understand that generous subsidies in education have made education much more expensive. At this point, you'd have to be a fool not to comprehend that.

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edit: Continuing thought, we've been throwing money at the problems you brought up for decades. Nothing changes, nothing gets better. The progressive solution? MORE money. Get the hint, it isn't about money. You can transfer all the wealth you want but if the culture or mindset of poor people doesn't change it won't make a difference. There's a reason most lottery winners go broke in a year or two.
First off, you gotta understand that your argument just looks so much weaker when you just make up a statistic at the very end. Yes, a lot of lottery winners go bankrupt and, yes, they go bankrupt because they are financially ignorant. But think about what you just said. >50% of lottery winners go broke in 2 years or less. Can you back that **** up or is that just some vague preconception floating around in your head?

Second, the guy isn't talking about student loans at a policy level. He's talking about paying for his own tuition with his circumstances. I doubt he cares about the implications of subsidies on the cost of college. He wants help now.

Think of all the things the chattering classes have talked about. Are you for publicly funded K12 education? How many times have you heard "a bachelor's is the new high school degree" or a "master's is the new bachelor's"? The upper middle class has been talking about education credential inflation for so long, how do you think it takes for that information to filter down to a person in the lower economic spectrum and think "hey, the government should pay for my college education because the elites are making it practically mandatory"?

You don't need to tell me that the cost of tertiary education is being inflated and escalated by the wide availability of education subsidies, but that guy doesn't care about policy. He cares about his own individual circumstances. He's not a politician or a policy analyst. He doesn't have the luxury of looking at a problem from a bird's eye view.

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Have you ever sold directly? Retail? Knocking on doors, cold call type selling?

"The problem isn't what we're selling. It's how we're selling it."
Why is it I always hear that from people who are trying to sell an uncompetitive product. Politics is, in many the ways, the ultimate consumer selling experience. There are people knocking doors, cold calling, and trying to sell that product/candidate/political party in grocery store parking lots. Not to mention that in elections advertising is KING!!

Sometimes you have to except that consumers need to be coaxed away from your competition. You have to bring them around in steps. Throw an ipad over the tech wall in 1988 and it would have sunk like a stone. The consumer wouldn't want it because they didn't know they wanted it. You have to make them want it. And you have to have infrastructure in place to allow them to use it. How many people are going to hook their ipads up to a 1200 baud modem that they also carry around with them and a phone cord to go with it and a serial cable to connect the modem to the ipad. (And don't even get me started about data speeds) Apple tried that, it was called the newton, and.....it sunk like a rock.

Maybe you have a "great product". If the consumer doesn't buy it (and part of that may be how you are selling it) its not a great product. It might be a great idea/thing/innovation/etc. But, a great product its not.

Did you ever stop to think...maybe...just maybe...it is the product. It might not even be a bad idea or design, but, if its not selling chances are it is the product.
You're kind of contradicting yourself here. So do I have to change the product or change the marketing? I say it's the latter.

Anyways, I don't want to get too deep in analogies here. Do I think Republicans need to fundamentally change their policy prescriptions? No. There are a few tweaks here and there that need to be worked out, but that happens in the legislative process. Winning elections is all about marketing. And right now, the Republicans have a brand with negative public perception. That makes it extraordinarily hard to win elections at a national level.
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:35 AM   #25
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Credit to Rand Paul for speaking "to" Howard University.

Trouble was, in large part, he was speaking "to" or "at" Howard University students and not really with them. His remarks were a bit tone deaf, even a touch patronizing at times. That pretty much all the good things Republicans had done for blacks he mentioned were done some 50-150 years ago speaks legions right there --revealing a mindset focused on the past rather than the future. He seemed to either not to realize, or think that his audience realized, that most of the racist Democratic Dixicrats and their views he disparaged have now been absorbed into the Republican party of today. While there are elements of his libertarian views that could and do resonate with his audience, those tend to be more incidental and tangental.

Paul seems to take the appeal of libertarianism for granted without understanding that the experience of blacks with the relationships between federal and state power, from the civil war through the civil rights era have been vastly different than that of relatively privileged (socially and financially) whites and far more positive. "States rights" and a weak Federal government had resulted in the legal (slavery) and then semi-legal (Jim Crow, societal discrimination) bondage and suffering for them for most of American history. I don't think he comprehended this difference in viewpoint much less discussed or argued around this disparity in experience and resultant viewpoints in any depth.

Again though, however clumsy, awkward and stilted, you have to give him credit for recognizing the dire need for the GOP to appeal much more broadly than it now does. However, as aluded to in earlier posts, the problem goes far deeper than mere marketing/communications problems to their actual product -- their policies. I think the American public clearly did hear and understand Republican ideology and policies all too clearly in 2012, one could hardly escape the barrage of hundreds of millions of ads and campaigning. To blame their woes solely on poor marketing and communications is both disingenuous at best or avoiding harsh realities at the worst.

So while the GOP has rudely been made aware of the narrowness of their appeal ala 2012, I'm not sure they're truly ready to dig deep enough to fix their product yet. Realize that in terms of aggragate total votes, the GOP lost not only in the Presidential race (as they have in five of the past six elections) and in the Senate, but also, cumulatively, in the House by several million votes where they only maintained a majority by dint of aggressive redistricting and other tactics to defy electoral gravity.

The GOP really does need to do a rethink and come up with an ideoloogy and subsequent policies that don't "Take American Back" (to where? When?), but rather, takes America forward into the future. This doesn't mean Democrat-lite as some cynically disparage, but it certain doesn't mean the GOP of yesterday or today.

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Old 04-12-2013, 10:51 AM   #26
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Who cares about that? The modern Republican Party absorbed the disaffected Dixiecrats as part of Nixon's southern strategy in the 70s. The Republican Party can trace its roots back to Lincoln, but the party has changed drastically since then.

A white man going into a black audience and reminding them that a Republican politician freed their ancestors 150 years ago is the epitome of bad taste. This is the kind of tone-deafness that absolutely kills Republicans in the battle to control the news cycle.

Rand Paul had good intentions, but his game plan was shitty. And part of the reason why is because he is a person of great privilege who isn't used to talking to people who have faced a lot more adversity growing up than most white people in the country.

There is a winning Republican message that can be made to blacks and other minorities. But the Republican Party, for a host of reasons, can't effectively market that message.
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:55 AM   #27
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Curious. What is the democratic message to blacks and other minorities?
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:06 AM   #28
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Curious. What is the democratic message to blacks and other minorities?
Acknowledgment for starters. At least they want their votes. Republicans just bitch about how minorities exist, because they help the other guy win.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:24 AM   #29
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Curious. What is the democratic message to blacks and other minorities?
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:57 AM   #30
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You're kind of contradicting yourself here. So do I have to change the product or change the marketing? I say it's the latter.
The point I am making is "both" is the answer. The GOP needs a better/different product and they need to market it better.

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Anyways, I don't want to get too deep in analogies here. Do I think Republicans need to fundamentally change their policy prescriptions? No. There are a few tweaks here and there that need to be worked out, but that happens in the legislative process. Winning elections is all about marketing. And right now, the Republicans have a brand with negative public perception. That makes it extraordinarily hard to win elections at a national level.
Change their policy prescriptions in certain areas like reproductive rights, same-sex marriage, & "family values". Stop taking the tack that everybody on welfare is just a lazy free loading good-for-nothing that wants everything for free. The welfare system needs to be overhauled and more restrictive (but not eliminated), and come up with a plan to do just that. Those are all part of their policy prescriptions as well.

Maybe they could come up with legislation for a true flat-tax system. Perhaps it is brought in as a slightly graduated flat tax. X%, X+1% above 100K, X+2% above 500K, X+3% above 1Mil. The gripe about taxes I have heard for decades (at least since the 70's) is not that the working class/middle class believe that as a percentage of income it is they that are getting screwed. Not to mention it would simplify the tax code.

Those are all changes to their "product". They are also changes that might help them market more effectively.

IMO, to start to be competitive they need to do both. They lost a presidential election to an incumbent with a worse economic record than Jimmy Carter. They could have put up a giraffe in a suit and won and should have been able to win that election. Not only didn't they win the electoral vote, they lost the popular vote by over 3 million as well. 3 million out of 130 million may not seem like a lot. But, it is a healthy margin when you consider the circs.
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:09 PM   #31
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Curious. What is the democratic message to blacks and other minorities?
Coddling.

Obamaphones.

Soft bigotry of low expectations.

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Old 04-12-2013, 12:11 PM   #32
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That is a terrible analogy and assumes one is incapable of achieving even with perseverance. You say the GOP needs to understand the game is rigged? Well, I say you liberals need to stop with the defeat before effort or just let the GOP adopt your ****ing kids.
Will you learn to read. Just because a game is rigged doesn't mean one can't win. It means the odds of winning are longer. It is not just the GOP that needs to understand this, the DNC needs to as well. Admit that the game is rigged and nothing is going to change that the game is rigged. All that might maybe be done is make the odds a bit closer to even. (However, the discussion was specifically around the GOP.)

Hard work and perseverance aren't always enough, they usually aren't enough. If they were most small businesses and start-ups wouldn't fail. And yet, even given the high failure rate, people continue to try.

Either extreme position (auto-fail or its not rigged) is absurd.
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:12 PM   #33
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Old 04-12-2013, 01:11 PM   #34
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Ah, yeah. But college still isn't a guarantee of success. They're still going to face discrimination and prejudice for the rest of their working lives.

Look at it this way, the average black college graduate makes 52k per year. The average white college graduate makes 73k per year. Source: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpsta...pinc04_000.htm

If a black person looks at that data, how do you think they would explain that income disparity? That they are less hard working than whites? That they're less intelligent than whites? Chances are, they'll think that because whites have always been the dominant (and therefore normal) racial demographic in the United States, that they have an ingrained advantage in our current economic system.

When black people go into a job interview, they have to contend with a lot of baggage associated with their race. Because black people have stereotypes on their work ethic, attitude, speech that get engrained both in their minds and the mind of their prospective employer. If you think that doesn't exist or that it doesn't affect outcomes, you're wrong. It does.


The color of your skin has no important stigmas attached to it. With blacks it's a much different story. That is the type of privilege minorities talk about when they talk about white privilege. The privilege to not be prejudged solely on the color of their skin.


You're wrong. The white kid growing up poor with a drug addicted single mom has a better chance of making it in life. White people, across every significant measurable socioeconomic status, do better than black people. And it's not because they're more intelligent and hardworking.


I do understand that generous subsidies in education have made education much more expensive. At this point, you'd have to be a fool not to comprehend that.


First off, you gotta understand that your argument just looks so much weaker when you just make up a statistic at the very end. Yes, a lot of lottery winners go bankrupt and, yes, they go bankrupt because they are financially ignorant. But think about what you just said. >50% of lottery winners go broke in 2 years or less. Can you back that **** up or is that just some vague preconception floating around in your head?

Second, the guy isn't talking about student loans at a policy level. He's talking about paying for his own tuition with his circumstances. I doubt he cares about the implications of subsidies on the cost of college. He wants help now.

Think of all the things the chattering classes have talked about. Are you for publicly funded K12 education? How many times have you heard "a bachelor's is the new high school degree" or a "master's is the new bachelor's"? The upper middle class has been talking about education credential inflation for so long, how do you think it takes for that information to filter down to a person in the lower economic spectrum and think "hey, the government should pay for my college education because the elites are making it practically mandatory"?

You don't need to tell me that the cost of tertiary education is being inflated and escalated by the wide availability of education subsidies, but that guy doesn't care about policy. He cares about his own individual circumstances. He's not a politician or a policy analyst. He doesn't have the luxury of looking at a problem from a bird's eye view.
First of all, I don't know many law school graduates that make 73k a year. There are so many factors into why the 'average' black college grad makes less than the 'white' college grad you should be ashamed for even implying (or outright stating in not so many words) that the cause is racism. Seriously, shame on you.

What does the average black kid major in? White kid? How far can you go with a degree in black studies? (just an example) What is the average GPA of a black student versus a white one? What fields to the average black kid go into versus the white one? You come off as shockingly ignorant to just chalk it up to racism, especially since corporate america wets its pants at the chance of hiring minorities these days.

I work in corporate america. Black people are given excellent opportunities through diversity programs that every company worth a nickle has and promotes. Believe me, they want to hire the black kid for their own selfish purposes.

I also think its amazingly ignorant that you think white people do better across socio-economic planes simply because of the color of their skin. You refuse to acknowledge culture as a component and you (asian of all people, lol) live in fantasy land when you say all people are basically the same and work hard. I find it even funnier that you are ranting about what it is like to be a black person with your glittering unsourced (not even personal knowledge) generalities. I guess you really think you're in the club huh, brother?

Lottery: http://www.smartmoney.com/invest/sto...1301002181742/

You are right, that kid only cares about himself. He doesn't care about policy implications, economic implications or anything but ME ME ME. That's the problem.
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Old 04-12-2013, 01:28 PM   #35
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...you should be ashamed for even implying (or outright stating in not so many words) that the cause is racism. Seriously, shame on you.
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Old 04-12-2013, 01:53 PM   #36
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:18 PM   #37
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I work in corporate america. Black people are given excellent opportunities through diversity programs that every company worth a nickle has and promotes. Believe me, they want to hire the black kid for their own selfish purposes.

I also think its amazingly ignorant that you think white people do better across socio-economic planes simply because of the color of their skin. You refuse to acknowledge culture as a component and you (asian of all people, lol) live in fantasy land when you say all people are basically the same and work hard. I find it even funnier that you are ranting about what it is like to be a black person with your glittering unsourced (not even personal knowledge) generalities. I guess you really think you're in the club huh, brother?
This, I think, touches on a very important point that you've overlooked. What you essentially stated is that somebody hired somebody else not necessarily based on their aptitude for the job. Think very carefully about that.

There are a lot of jobs out there that essentially anybody can do. When hiring managers look to fill those jobs, there can be times where "culture fit" is more important than the prospective employee's aptitude for the actual demands of the job. If the hiring manager is a huge Knicks fan and two candidates come in. One's a huge Knicks fan as well and the other couldn't care less about basketball. All other things being equal, who do you think the hiring manager would select?

But it goes beyond just whether you like sports or not. Appearances matter too. I believe you're a lawyer. When you meet clients, do you wear a suit? Let's say you're a criminal attorney, would you advise your client to wear a suit when he goes to the courtroom? Why would you ask them to wear a suit?

Because the suit signals to other people that you "get it". That sometimes people judge other people based on how they look. So if that's the case, it's better to look like a professional than a slob. But skin color isn't like a suit. You can't change skin color for your job interview or when you're facing the judge. If you think that physical appearance (it doesn't even have to be skin color, it can be things like height, sex, hair color, etc) plays no role in how people treat each other, you're delusional.

Whether in TV or in real life, have you ever heard something similar to "Why can't you marry a nice Jewish girl?" People, for the most part, keep it in the tribe. We do it with our friends. With our neighbors. Our personal relationships. Is it too much of a stretch to think that we do it with our professional relationships, and that some groups of people, on average, experience more deleterious effects than others?

That doesn't support what you wrote. They collected data on 35,000 lottery winners and found that 1900 of them declared bankruptcy within 5 years. That's waaaaaaaaaaaaay different than your claim that more than 50% of lottery winners go broke within the first 2 years.

You made up a number, got called out on it, and then you cited something that says something completely different than your fabrication. Talk about pathetic. Just admit that you made the number up and move on.

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You are right, that kid only cares about himself. He doesn't care about policy implications, economic implications or anything but ME ME ME. That's the problem.
And he differs from other Americans in what way, exactly?

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First of all, I don't know many law school graduates that make 73k a year. There are so many factors into why the 'average' black college grad makes less than the 'white' college grad you should be ashamed for even implying (or outright stating in not so many words) that the cause is racism. Seriously, shame on you.

What does the average black kid major in? White kid? How far can you go with a degree in black studies? (just an example) What is the average GPA of a black student versus a white one? What fields to the average black kid go into versus the white one? You come off as shockingly ignorant to just chalk it up to racism, especially since corporate america wets its pants at the chance of hiring minorities these days.
So you're stating that the income disparity is mostly accounted for by major, GPA, and concentration? This opens up a whole new can of worms, but I'm going to gloss over all that and say you're wrong because I've spent far too much time belaboring the point.
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:22 PM   #38
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So you're stating that the income disparity is mostly accounted for by major, GPA, and concentration? This opens up a whole new can of worms, but I'm going to gloss over all that and say you're wrong because I've spent far too much time belaboring the point.
Are you actually saying that what you major in, and how well you do, in college has no bearing on your employability and compensation when you graduate? really? REALLY?
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:01 PM   #39
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I work in corporate america. Black people are given excellent opportunities through diversity programs that every company worth a nickle has and promotes. Believe me, they want to hire the black kid for their own selfish purposes.
And if race, gender, sexual orientation weren't still potential negative factors in moving ahead. If there was no bigotry in the workplace, these diversity programs wouldn't even be needed. But, yet there they are.

And I am not so sure how many of them "want to hire the black kid". Some do. Some just want to give the appearance that they "want to hire the black kid" Yet those folks seldom seem to, because the non-black/male/hetro candidates some how "just seemed that bit more qualified/experienced/fit better in to the group/etc"

Is the situation better than it was 20 years ago. Sure it is. Are their more people who don't care about the race, gender, sexual orientation of job candidates. Yes. But, if you think there is total equality and impartiality, you are living in a fool's paradise.
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Old 04-12-2013, 06:53 PM   #40
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And if race, gender, sexual orientation weren't still potential negative factors in moving ahead. If there was no bigotry in the workplace, these diversity programs wouldn't even be needed. But, yet there they are.

And I am not so sure how many of them "want to hire the black kid". Some do. Some just want to give the appearance that they "want to hire the black kid" Yet those folks seldom seem to, because the non-black/male/hetro candidates some how "just seemed that bit more qualified/experienced/fit better in to the group/etc"

Is the situation better than it was 20 years ago. Sure it is. Are their more people who don't care about the race, gender, sexual orientation of job candidates. Yes. But, if you think there is total equality and impartiality, you are living in a fool's paradise.
Do you think black bosses hire more blacks? Do Jewish bosses hire more Jews? It isn't just the man that does this, everyone does it. Every black judge I work with (which is many) has an all black staff. Every religious Jewish judge has all Jewish staff. Don't act like this is all white people shenanigans, real white people don't even like Italian and Irish.
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