E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Gun Talk

Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-13-2013, 03:32 PM   #1
customisbetter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Lansing
Posts: 255
My Ride: 02 325xi
A story and question for Self-defense guys

So I had the scariest night of my life yesterday.

Late evening I'm hanging with my friend in his apartment. His female roommate came home and informed us that she believes her now ex boyfriend was acting weird and might show up that night.

Later she goes outside to talk a phone call from him. After a few minutes I hear her scream "Help!" and struggle to get inside the door.

I immediately ran to the door to help and her ex barges through the door as i meet it. I could tell he was wasted and I could see a half-empty fifth of vodka in his hand. He was taller than 6' 2" and had at least 50 pounds of muscle on me.

I politely ask him to leave and he says no and pushes past me inside. I get between him and the girl and distract him with small talk and general mess with drunks talk.

This calmed him down to the point where we was starting to act reasonable. My friend and i both had our phones with 911 dialed just waiting to call. However the girl asked us not to call unless something happened. (THIS IS THE HUGE MISTAKE OF THE NIGHT)

I compromise with him on a deal and we agree that he can talk to the girl in her room (just outside the room we occupied) with the door open. I stood outside the door listening.

After a half hour or so of this I hear a struggle and walk through the door. The guy had his arm around the girls neck and was dragging her to the ground. I screamed at him to stop and he lunged at me, grabbing my throat with both hands.

I reached back for my knife and as i did he let go and drunk hugged me. I then put my pacifist face back on and talked Im into finally leaving. He grabbed his fifth, pulled from it and left to drive somewhere.

I locked the door and then kinda went into shock.



QUESTION

What else could i have done? I do believe that if I was armed i would have drawn on him at the door. However I wasn't carrying because I'm an idiot.
__________________
customisbetter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 03:40 PM   #2
Sentaruu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 844
My Ride: Xterra
should have called the cops first thing my friend. "something happened" when she started screaming "help" and he busted through the door drunk. not to mention he drove himself there drunk.
__________________

Last edited by Sentaruu; 04-13-2013 at 03:42 PM.
Sentaruu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 03:45 PM   #3
tailo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: virginia
Posts: 1,222
My Ride: 02 330I
First mistake was no gun.

I would have called or had my friend call 911 first, MAKE SURE the 911 operator KNOWS whats going on, that your armed, and make sure you give him plenty of chances to leave.

THEN you sream, GET THE F^&*(K away from her! PUT DOWN THE KNIFE....PUT DOWN THE KNIFE...

Take a quick trip to the spot that you keep your pre cleaned drop weapons, plant some finger prints....

Problem solved....

OK OK... kidding asside.

You have to be prepaired to kill, if you draw on a drunk and have any kind of remorse or sympathy for him he very will may kill you with your own weapon. You have to know when its proper and legal. You also have to prepair for the aftermath of the act, you dont how the girl still feels about him compounding the problem with the possibility of her attacking you afterwards.

Theres no "right" way to handle a tough situation, you just have to prepair for stuff and hope for the best. 911 should have been dialed the first second.

Last edited by tailo; 04-13-2013 at 03:50 PM.
tailo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 03:55 PM   #4
Wraisil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 215
My Ride: 2010 Infiniti G37
The second a drunk driver who is scaring a person shows up at your house you call 911. Heck, you call even if they aren't driving drunk. You do not EVER allow a person who has shown rage/violence or a propensity for either the opportunity to be alone with someone they could harm. If he had truly calmed down he would have accepted a ride home and the opportunity to talk to her after he had calmed down and sobered up. Let this be a fortunate lesson for you to learn from.
Wraisil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 04:00 PM   #5
MrGL2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Montreal
Posts: 48
My Ride: 2000 323Ci
As you stated, should have called the cops first thing.
Also, never let him in the appartment.

Don't get stranded inside when there is plenty of space outside where you are way more effective is something happens.

Pulling the knofe was a good move but like someone mentionned. Be prepared to use it.

You did good. It could have turned to a real mess if you had not been there !
MrGL2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 04:22 PM   #6
Sentaruu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 844
My Ride: Xterra
as tailo stated above, if you are going to carry, even if it is knife for personal protection, you must put yourself into the correct frame of mind. you must prepare yourself for the unlikely event that you do actually deploy whatever defensive measure you have that it 1) is appropriate for the situation at hand and 2) you are physically and mentally capable of following through.
__________________
Sentaruu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 04:47 PM   #7
customisbetter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Lansing
Posts: 255
My Ride: 02 325xi
I have no problem using deadly force. I've training to for that my whole life. My biggest surprise from all of this was my pacifist mindset. Looking back I don't know if being more aggressive would have just gotten somebody hurt. I think that must have been my mindset seeing as there was no way I could take this guy at that moment. So i went to flight mode and went mediator.
__________________
customisbetter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 04:49 PM   #8
Sentaruu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 844
My Ride: Xterra
then stab him in the torso right under the armpit, slit his throat and gut him next time
__________________

Last edited by Sentaruu; 04-13-2013 at 04:50 PM.
Sentaruu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 04:51 PM   #9
customisbetter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Lansing
Posts: 255
My Ride: 02 325xi
There better not be a next time. haha

If there is, I am now even more prepared to handle the situation.
__________________
customisbetter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 05:02 PM   #10
tailo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: virginia
Posts: 1,222
My Ride: 02 330I
Yup, you have to view that POS as worthless, like a ant.

Unless your a psychopath humans are hardwired not to kill other humans. In some situations hesitating to kill is the surest way to get killed.

It all comes down to conditioning. The military, police departments, and a few private trainers can basically rewire your brain to "react first" and think about the fact that your poking a hole in your own kind later. It can done so well that you could walk from a situation, alive, and have no further effect on you mentally than if you would have stepped on a bug.

It's a way of life, you will change if you go down this road. You may loose a sense of humor, or atleast gain a darker version. Relationships can be hard and people in general will annoy you, especially if there dumbasses. But that's just what it is. Ever met a marine who wasent alittle fucked up in the head after retirement, there never the same as they were when they went in?
tailo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 05:07 PM   #11
tailo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: virginia
Posts: 1,222
My Ride: 02 330I
Quote:
Originally Posted by customisbetter View Post
I have no problem using deadly force. I've training to for that my whole life. My biggest surprise from all of this was my pacifist mindset. Looking back I don't know if being more aggressive would have just gotten somebody hurt. I think that must have been my mindset seeing as there was no way I could take this guy at that moment. So i went to flight mode and went mediator.
Front vs mid brain. In a stressfull situation humans revert back to a more animal state. Your programed not to kill a human from birth. It's why some snakes will kill other snakes but not there own kind.

Basically, your training sucks. You need that resistance to fight a larger person taken out of your system.

You could have taken him, a kid can kill a full blown man if you catch him off guard. Your getting in to legal issues there but it can be done very easily, especially since you talked him down.

Last edited by tailo; 04-13-2013 at 05:08 PM.
tailo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 06:37 PM   #12
JonJon
Tinfoilhatatarian
 
JonJon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: One of the most evil states ever to exist
Posts: 3,462
My Ride: .
Send a message via AIM to JonJon
No offense but you did everything wrong.
Good news it's a real life lesson to learn from.

In hindsight you and the girl could be dead right now.
Take that last statement very seriously.

With threats of visit, she should've never been allowed outside alone.
The MILLISECOND he showed up, 911 should have been called.

I wasn't there but if he barged into my house after being told to leave he would been looking at the end of my gun. If he started choking the girl/attacking me he might have some extra holes

You need to be more aggressive. Your approach as a pacifist and "buddy buddy" with him is submissive. Sometimes that tactic defuses situations, sometimes it gets you killed

You had several escalating red flags and failed to change your tactic to adjust

Like I said... Life lesson
__________________
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
I agree with JonJon.

Last edited by JonJon; 04-13-2013 at 06:40 PM.
JonJon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 06:50 PM   #13
customisbetter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Lansing
Posts: 255
My Ride: 02 325xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJon View Post
No offense but you did everything wrong.
Good news it's a real life lesson to learn from.

In hindsight you and the girl could be dead right now.
Take that last statement very seriously.

With threats of visit, she should've never been allowed outside alone.
The MILLISECOND he showed up, 911 should have been called.

I wasn't there but if he barged into my house after being told to leave he would been looking at the end of my gun. If he started choking the girl/attacking me he might have some extra holes

You need to be more aggressive. Your approach as a pacifist and "buddy buddy" with him is submissive. Sometimes that tactic defuses situations, sometimes it gets you killed

You had several escalating red flags and failed to change your tactic to adjust

Like I said... Life lesson
Thanks JJ! I agree that We are all very lucky to be uninjured. Believe me that if it was my place that dude wouldn't have made it through the door, however the girl lives there and it was her wish to let him stay. I was limited in that respect however I won't make that mistake again.

I do frequent this apartment often and I have been granted permission to carry my weapon inside. I will certainly take this as a lucky learning situation. I got a free lesson and thankfully nobody was injured.

I've been dry firing all day today and practicing from as many holster draw scenarios as possible. Including holding random things and then dropping them to draw. I don't want my reflex to draw impeded by holding something and not knowing what to do with my hands.
__________________
customisbetter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 06:54 PM   #14
JonJon
Tinfoilhatatarian
 
JonJon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: One of the most evil states ever to exist
Posts: 3,462
My Ride: .
Send a message via AIM to JonJon
I want to take back "you did everything wrong"

Everyone is safe so obviously your actions worked

Just play it over in your head and hopefully there isnt a next time but if... You'll have more options to consider
__________________
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
I agree with JonJon.

Last edited by JonJon; 04-13-2013 at 06:54 PM.
JonJon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 07:25 PM   #15
HiHoBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,103
My Ride: 05 M3
Would OP have been justified using a knife on the aggressor since he was a larger and impared threat especially when physicaly choking out the girl? Is a gun regaurded any more or less lethal or appropriate than the knife in this situation?

My interpretation is that a weapon can be justified as a force multiplier if the bad guy is significantly larger or impaired. This may vary between states due to Castle Doctrine,Stand your ground,or duty to retreat laws.

sent from my ATARI sc1224
__________________
HiHoBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 07:29 PM   #16
customisbetter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Lansing
Posts: 255
My Ride: 02 325xi
In Michigan I should have stabbed him when he choked me.

I recognized in that moment that I had vast superiority over his position once he grabbed me. I had many options in that instant. I could have cracked his head on the door frame behind him, swept left right and let his strong side bring him to the ground and take control. My other option was of course to stab him. But for some reason i continued the pacifist route. Although it seemed like the most dangerous part of the night, he was in the weakest position when he grabbed me. I took a small hesitation and after that i had to play on that route.
__________________
customisbetter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 07:42 PM   #17
JonJon
Tinfoilhatatarian
 
JonJon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: One of the most evil states ever to exist
Posts: 3,462
My Ride: .
Send a message via AIM to JonJon
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoBrian View Post
Would OP have been justified using a knife on the aggressor since he was a larger and impared threat especially when physicaly choking out the girl? Is a gun regaurded any more or less lethal or appropriate than the knife in this situation?

My interpretation is that a weapon can be justified as a force multiplier if the bad guy is significantly larger or impaired. This may vary between states due to Castle Doctrine,Stand your ground,or duty to retreat laws.

sent from my ATARI sc1224
The object doesn't matter. Deadly force is deadly
Force whether its a gun or a screwdriver

Disparity of force is a common variable especially when someone is drunk and larger
__________________
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
I agree with JonJon.
JonJon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 07:45 PM   #18
Sentaruu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 844
My Ride: Xterra
Quote:
Originally Posted by customisbetter View Post
In Michigan I should have stabbed him when he choked me.

I recognized in that moment that I had vast superiority over his position once he grabbed me. I had many options in that instant. I could have cracked his head on the door frame behind him, swept left right and let his strong side bring him to the ground and take control. My other option was of course to stab him. But for some reason i continued the pacifist route. Although it seemed like the most dangerous part of the night, he was in the weakest position when he grabbed me. I took a small hesitation and after that i had to play on that route.
he had his hands at your throat, stab his torso under the armpit...
__________________
Sentaruu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 09:40 PM   #19
Reedo302
Registered User
 
Reedo302's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 7,675
My Ride: F30 328i M Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by customisbetter View Post
I have no problem using deadly force. I've training to for that my whole life. My biggest surprise from all of this was my pacifist mindset. Looking back I don't know if being more aggressive would have just gotten somebody hurt. I think that must have been my mindset seeing as there was no way I could take this guy at that moment. So i went to flight mode and went mediator.
Most people who have never been in an actual physical altercation of any significance commonly hesitate. Unless it's something that you've been accustomed to, there will always be a disconnect with processing and acting. If you're familiar with the OODA loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act), you obviously immediately observed the incident and recognized that there was a threat, but you did not acknowledge how much of a danger the threat was. You Observed, and then you failed to correctly Orient because it was something you were not familiar with and didn't have previous experience and innoculation to. You had no basis for understanding how serious the threat really was until hindsight, and hindsight is always 20/20. Because you had poor orientation, you Decision was to try and diffuse things and smooth things over, which is likely inline with your personality and how you've traditionally handled situations in the past. Not a bad thing in general, but it was situationally inappropriate. That was your decision, and you acted accordingly.

Then it devolved in the bedroom to a further, more dire circumstance. You observed that he was assaulting her, and from that you developed your orientation to that incident. Because you had prior exposure to him recently, you then had a good basis and understood that he was drunk and aggressive and you understood that there was a serious threat. Your decision to tell him to stop was implemented into action, but here the question lies with why you chose to be vocal instead of taking immediate action. This is up to you, and I'm not going to beat you up over it.
In this instance, your OODA loop started to get better, because you got to OO before you started to have a disconnect.

Then, he attacks you. You observed the attack, and you react by reaching for your knife. You observed a threat, perceived it as a serious threat, decided to grab for your knife to use it, but then decided to not use the knife because he apparently de-escalated.

Basically, your pacifist reaction occurred because you knew of no other reaction. It was based around apprehension, lack of confidence in your own abilities, intimidation of the threat, lack of exposure to this kind of threat and violence, and lack of mindset on how to handle the issue. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but it is most certainly something you need to learn from.

----------------------
As far as what happened, here's an overview of what occurred:

DWI -> Public intoxication -> Disorderly Conduct -> Burglary/B&E -> Criminal Trespass -> Domestic Assault by Strangulation -> Felony Assault by Strangulation -> DWI

That's how I break down the progression of events as they happened.
The instant he started trying to get into the house, someone should have been calling 911. Even if she doesn't want them, she really does. Women many times think they don't, but after we show up, they are usually happy we did by the time we leave.

.
__________________



Gunfighter Training Development and Evaluation
AR15/AR10 Armorer/Advanced Armorer
Glock Armorer


Gunfighter Training YouTube Channel
Reedo302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 10:21 PM   #20
BMW_Matt
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Maryland
Posts: 13,066
My Ride: Has AWD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
Most people who have never been in an actual physical altercation of any significance commonly hesitate. Unless it's something that you've been accustomed to, there will always be a disconnect with processing and acting. If you're familiar with the OODA loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act), you obviously immediately observed the incident and recognized that there was a threat, but you did not acknowledge how much of a danger the threat was. You Observed, and then you failed to correctly Orient because it was something you were not familiar with and didn't have previous experience and innoculation to. You had no basis for understanding how serious the threat really was until hindsight, and hindsight is always 20/20. Because you had poor orientation, you Decision was to try and diffuse things and smooth things over, which is likely inline with your personality and how you've traditionally handled situations in the past. Not a bad thing in general, but it was situationally inappropriate. That was your decision, and you acted accordingly.

Then it devolved in the bedroom to a further, more dire circumstance. You observed that he was assaulting her, and from that you developed your orientation to that incident. Because you had prior exposure to him recently, you then had a good basis and understood that he was drunk and aggressive and you understood that there was a serious threat. Your decision to tell him to stop was implemented into action, but here the question lies with why you chose to be vocal instead of taking immediate action. This is up to you, and I'm not going to beat you up over it.
In this instance, your OODA loop started to get better, because you got to OO before you started to have a disconnect.

Then, he attacks you. You observed the attack, and you react by reaching for your knife. You observed a threat, perceived it as a serious threat, decided to grab for your knife to use it, but then decided to not use the knife because he apparently de-escalated.

Basically, your pacifist reaction occurred because you knew of no other reaction. It was based around apprehension, lack of confidence in your own abilities, intimidation of the threat, lack of exposure to this kind of threat and violence, and lack of mindset on how to handle the issue. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but it is most certainly something you need to learn from.

----------------------
As far as what happened, here's an overview of what occurred:

DWI -> Public intoxication -> Disorderly Conduct -> Burglary/B&E -> Criminal Trespass -> Domestic Assault by Strangulation -> Felony Assault by Strangulation -> DWI

That's how I break down the progression of events as they happened.
The instant he started trying to get into the house, someone should have been calling 911. Even if she doesn't want them, she really does. Women many times think they don't, but after we show up, they are usually happy we did by the time we leave.

.
It's sad I come into these threads just to see your posts, read and learn.
BMW_Matt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is OFF





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use