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Old 04-20-2013, 04:12 PM   #1
rapier7
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The Senate is a Farce

I don't know if you guys ever watch Bill Maher, but one issue that he's been pounding lately has been the disproportionate representation that small rural states have in the Senate.

I don't agree with him on a lot of issues, but this is one of them. It makes no sense for a state like Wyoming (population: 576,000) getting the same number of Senators that California (population: 38,000,000) has.

It allows rural states to extract a ridiculous amount of concessions from states where people actually live in. At this point, this goes beyond a liberal democracy committed to the protection of the rights of the minority to the exaltation of the minority.

Amend the Constitution. Abolish the Senate and guarantee each state 3 representatives to the House with the rest being determined by population, to be reapportioned decennially based on results of the Census.

What do you guys think?
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Old 04-20-2013, 04:38 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
I don't know if you guys ever watch Bill Maher, but one issue that he's been pounding lately has been the disproportionate representation that small rural states have in the Senate.

I don't agree with him on a lot of issues, but this is one of them. It makes no sense for a state like Wyoming (population: 576,000) getting the same number of Senators that California (population: 38,000,000) has.

It allows rural states to extract a ridiculous amount of concessions from states where people actually live in. At this point, this goes beyond a liberal democracy committed to the protection of the rights of the minority to the exaltation of the minority.

Amend the Constitution. Abolish the Senate and guarantee each state 3 representatives to the House with the rest being determined by population, to be reapportioned decennially based on results of the Census.

What do you guys think?
I watch Bill Maher regularly and I agree with this. There is disproportionate representation in the Senate. Salman Rushdie also brought a good point. How ridiculous is the 60 vote requirement to avoid a filibuster? A simple majority should win. Good luck with a amendment though. The Constitution has become such a scared document that an amendment proposal could equate to blasphemy even though it was created with a process for amendments.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:41 PM   #3
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Where have you been for the last 237 years ? The reason we have a senate with 2 votes per state is so that voting is based on state membership and the house is based on population. This argument was solved in 1776. I am not impressed with someone trying to create an argument that was discussed and solved over 200 years ago.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:44 PM   #4
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I watch Bill Maher regularly and I agree with this. There is disproportionate representation in the Senate. Salman Rushdie also brought a good point. How ridiculous is the 60 vote requirement to avoid a filibuster? A simple majority should win. Good luck with a amendment though. The Constitution has become such a scared document that an amendment proposal could equate to blasphemy even though it was created with a process for amendments.

It was 2/3 or 66 votes for 230 years until Her Royal Highness Nancy Pelosi changed it to 60 votes a few years ago. It has worked for 237 years. If it is not broke, don't fix it. There are bigger issues to be dealt with like the threat of being nuked by NK, 8 percent unemployment, 17 tn dollar debts and 40 million on public assistance.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:59 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post

It allows rural states to extract a ridiculous amount of concessions from states where people actually live in. At this point, this goes beyond a liberal democracy committed to the protection of the rights of the minority to the exaltation of the minority.

What do you guys think?
It also encourages cooperation among members and reduces the possibility of extremism from either side; rural states or urban dwellers.

It's a great idea. Screw Bill Maher.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:45 PM   #6
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It's supposed to be hard to push an agenda through Congress.
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Old 04-20-2013, 10:04 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Raymond42262 View Post
It was 2/3 or 66 votes for 230 years until Her Royal Highness Nancy Pelosi changed it to 60 votes a few years ago. It has worked for 237 years. If it is not broke, don't fix it. There are bigger issues to be dealt with like the threat of being nuked by NK, 8 percent unemployment, 17 tn dollar debts and 40 million on public assistance.
It has worked for 237 years? What are your metrics for success?

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It's supposed to be hard to push an agenda through Congress.
That is why there are two houses?
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Old 04-20-2013, 11:10 PM   #8
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It has worked for 237 years? What are your metrics for success?



That is why there are two houses?
Yes.
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Old 04-20-2013, 11:43 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Raymond42262 View Post
Where have you been for the last 237 years ? The reason we have a senate with 2 votes per state is so that voting is based on state membership and the house is based on population. This argument was solved in 1776. I am not impressed with someone trying to create an argument that was discussed and solved over 200 years ago.
An appeal to the past is idiotic. By that reasoning, slavery should still be an institution and blacks should only be counted for 3/5 of a person for the purposes of reapportionment in the Census.

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It's supposed to be hard to push an agenda through Congress.
If that's the case, make it a 60% vote in the House. I don't want a bicameral legislature where the second chamber has 40% of the representatives hailing from 5% of the country's population.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:07 AM   #10
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I am not shocked that Bill Maher is upset that less populous states with stronger conservative politics get equal representation in the Senate. Shocking.
The House is already determined by population. As was stated, it is not supposed to be easy to pass legislation. I hope his jimmies continue to be thoroughly rustled on the topic.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:22 AM   #11
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An appeal to the past is idiotic. By that reasoning, slavery should still be an institution and blacks should only be counted for 3/5 of a person for the purposes of reapportionment in the Census.


If that's the case, make it a 60% vote in the House. I don't want a bicameral legislature where the second chamber has 40% of the representatives hailing from 5% of the country's population.
Eh, it doesn't bother me the way it is now.
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Old 04-21-2013, 01:16 AM   #12
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Those states that have a larger population will have more representation in the House. If this were the case in the Senate, there would be no point of having two houses.

/thread
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Old 04-21-2013, 02:00 AM   #13
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I think you and Bill Maher should go read the Federalist Papers, starting with 52 through 66. Perhaps the two of you could garnish some of the wisdom of our Founding Fathers by doing so.
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Old 04-21-2013, 02:22 AM   #14
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It was 2/3 or 66 votes for 230 years until Her Royal Highness Nancy Pelosi changed it to 60 votes a few years ago.
"Her Royal Highness" isn't powerful enough to do **** on her own. It "was 2/3" to "avoid" a filibuster. However, it's been 60 to end a filibuster since 1975 and Reid and McConnell (not to mention everyone else in the Senate except the 9 Senators who voted against the change) introduced the change not Pelosi. Thanks for you obviously partisan (and inaccurate) take on the matter though.
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Old 04-21-2013, 04:41 AM   #15
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"Her Royal Highness" isn't powerful enough to do **** on her own. It "was 2/3" to "avoid" a filibuster. However, it's been 60 to end a filibuster since 1975 and Reid and McConnell (not to mention everyone else in the Senate except the 9 Senators who voted against the change) introduced the change not Pelosi. Thanks for you obviously partisan (and inaccurate) take on the matter though.
You're welcome .


i appreciate the time for your personal observations and the fact that I made a mistake.

But I remember that Ms. Pelosi made that a major point during her reign and I wrongly assumed it was her that changed it.
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Old 04-21-2013, 06:41 AM   #16
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Thread is depressing
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Old 04-21-2013, 06:46 AM   #17
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The Senate is a Farce

Will someone explain to bill maher that the senate was intentionally designed to give small states an equal say somewhere in the government, and that he can go fvck himself?


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Old 04-21-2013, 07:02 AM   #18
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The Senate is a Farce

What's weird is that bill Maher, raging liberal that he is, is generally an intelligent person.

This argument, though, is going full retard.


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Old 04-21-2013, 08:51 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
Every constitution then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right.--It may be said that the succeeding generation exercising in fact the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law has been expressly limited to 19 years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be indeed if every form of government were so perfectly contrived that the will of the majority could always be obtained fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves. Their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils. Bribery corrupts them. Personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents: and other impediments arise so as to prove to every practical man that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal.
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found.../v1ch2s23.html

Since many people are stuck in the past. How about Jefferson's view that the constitution should have a life span?
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:16 AM   #20
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The Senate is a Farce

Funny that that rider didn't gain enough traction to be included in the framework of the constitution.


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