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Old 04-19-2013, 11:49 AM   #21
dabears
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i care more about it from a bodybuilding/aesthetics standpoint. i dont have any particular "goal" set in terms of numbers; my increases in strength just come with the territory
I'm with you on that Mike Larry, if I only cared about raw strength numbers I wouldn't be cutting right now. But I'm starting to get addicted to chasing numbers, and I have a feeling you might too... you never know. I'm finding all the myths I believed in about strength are not true (looking like a bodybuilder).

I also play hockey competitively, so I have strength and agility / endurance goals for that as well.

Essentially I want to look my best, and be an overall more stronger / useful human. Who wouldn't want that?
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:55 AM   #22
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I'm with you on that Mike Larry, if I only cared about raw strength numbers I wouldn't be cutting right now. But I'm starting to get addicted to chasing numbers, and I have a feeling you might too... you never know. I'm finding all the myths I believed in about strength are not true (looking like a bodybuilder).

I also play hockey competitively, so I have strength and agility / endurance goals for that as well.

Essentially I want to look my best, and be an overall more stronger / useful human. Who wouldn't want that?

If all you cared about was raw strength numbers, you really wouldn't need to cut. The amount of molecular, musculoskeletal and hormonal stimulation that is derived from strength lifting would melt fat off of you.

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Old 04-19-2013, 11:56 AM   #23
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Keep calling me naive master, that's really helping your argument. lol

Yes, exactly like Rippetoe's leg press vs squat example. In this case DB bench press = squat, BB bench = leg press.

Wanna bet? I did this with 2 people at my gym last year as we were debating the same exact topic. Asked a stranger in gym that was benching 340lbs to try with DBs, he could not get 140lbs DBs. A guy that can bench heavy DBs can bench heavy on BB, but not the inverse.

I don't get your logic unless I'm missing something.

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Your first statement about DB weight is irrelevant. Even with a 150 lb. DB, it still will not put lean muscle mass on the body like a barbell bench press. Your example about the guy who bench XXX amount of weight on the barbell bench, but can't DB press XXX amount of weight only serves to highlight one thing: he doesn't DB press. DB guys don't have higher BB numbers by default. Generally speaking, a guy with a heavy BB bench and push heavy DB's; the inverse is not true (..much like Rippetoe's leg press versus squat anecdote).

Again...you're na´ve!
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:59 AM   #24
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Agree with Sean. I have been alternating between DBs and BB.
The problem with that is you wont progress after your newb gains. You think you're "confusing the muscles" but your're just exercising them and not training them. I know when I push myself time after time with the same thing I start inching up. If I says ohh let me mess with this for a bit it completely fuucks me and I have to work back at it. Alternating too often is a terrible idea imo. Train the damn muscle, stop doing so many random things.

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Old 04-19-2013, 12:02 PM   #25
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If all you cared about was raw strength numbers, you really wouldn't need to cut. The amount of molecular, musculoskeletal and hormonal stimulation that is derived from strength lifting would melt fat off of you.
I completely agree, but my point being I want a six pack now, and since I am not at the LBM to get those benefits, I am willing to take a couple months off from building strength to get it. I probably will look somewhat skinny! But thats ok, because once that's complete... I will be lean enough to enjoy the hormonal benefits to stay lean and just focus on raw strength, my ultimate goal. That's the plan anyways!
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:02 PM   #26
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Keep calling me naive master, that's really helping your argument. lol

Yes, exactly like Rippetoe's leg press vs squat example. In this case DB bench press = squat, BB bench = leg press.

Wanna bet? I did this with 2 people at my gym last year as we were debating the same exact topic. Asked a stranger in gym that was benching 340lbs to try with DBs, he could not get 140lbs DBs. A guy that can bench heavy DBs can bench heavy on BB, but not the inverse.

I don't get your logic unless I'm missing something.

Your naivety has absolutely nothing to do with the substance of my argument that, just for clarification states: for RAW STRENGTH AND POWER....I'll say it again......RAW STRENGTH AND POWER..........barbell work owns dumbbell work. That has been proven time & time again, and the biggest, strongest, fastest guys ALMOST ALWAYS work the barbell primarily; everything else is secondary or tertiary.

You are missing the core argument in favor of barbell work, which is.....OVERALL BODY STIMULATION/GROWTH. Let me repeat that once more....OVERALL BODY STIMULATION/GROWTH. The dumbbells WILL NOT provide OVERALL BODY STIMULATION/GROWTH.

I don't even know why I bother arguing with you about this.

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Old 04-19-2013, 12:04 PM   #27
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I love going into the gym, week after week, and looking at my phone app. I have all my numbers from last week, and my only goal is to beat them. Week in, week out. If i was constantly switching up my routine, I would have no idea of "progression". Same thing goes for accessory exercises. Exactly what rip is talking about I believe.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:07 PM   #28
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zoo you fail to realize that stimulating the central nervous system = the key to gaining mass. Accessory work doesn't even come close to achieving the type of CNS stimulation that a heavy barbell does. When you blast the CNS with barbell training, it releases growth hormone, testosterone, and another type of growth hormone that I cannot for the life of me recall right now.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:10 PM   #29
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I completely agree, but my point being I want a six pack now, and since I am not at the LBM to get those benefits, I am willing to take a couple months off from building strength to get it. I probably will look somewhat skinny! But thats ok, because once that's complete... I will be lean enough to enjoy the hormonal benefits to stay lean and just focus on raw strength, my ultimate goal. That's the plan anyways!

My point is that rather than cut, alter your program to stimulate the changes in your body. Increasing your LBM will benefit you more.

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Old 04-19-2013, 12:13 PM   #30
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zoo you fail to realize that stimulating the central nervous system = the key to gaining mass. Accessory work doesn't even come close to achieving the type of CNS stimulation that a heavy barbell does. When you blast the CNS with barbell training, it releases growth hormone, testosterone, and another type of growth hormone that I cannot for the life of me recall right now.

The problem is....to him, the term "mass" means "big & fat". His perspective is so myopic (..because he's a n00b who has a hard time listening to people who have been there and done that) that he just can't fathom the information that is being presented to him.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:18 PM   #31
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How often do you switch up your workout routine? I have been on the same one for 5 months. I had good gains with it, time to switch and then go back.

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The problem with that is you wont progress after your newb gains. You think you're "confusing the muscles" but your're just exercising them and not training them. I know when I push myself time after time with the same thing I start inching up. If I says ohh let me mess with this for a bit it completely fuucks me and I have to work back at it. Alternating too often is a terrible idea imo. Train the damn muscle, stop doing so many random things.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:23 PM   #32
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My point is that rather than cut, alter your program to stimulate the changes in your body. Increasing your LBM will benefit your more.
The way I see it, to reach my aesthetic six pack goal I have two options scientifically:

1) Eat +500 calories of my TDEE on training days to build lean body mass. Eat -500 on rest days to burn fat. Working out 3 days a week, I would lose roughly half a pound of fat a week (slightly handicapped by minimal fat gain from training days, but likely negated by lean tissue increase to metabolism). It would take me roughly 20 weeks to achieve my goal of a six pack. (5 months, summer already over).

2) Do my current plan of -750 calories on rest days, -250 on training days. Working out 3 days a week, I will lose roughly a lb a week. I am at 176 lbs, so in 6 weeks I will weigh 170 lbs (end of may). This will put me at ~12% bf. Then switch to a -750 rest, +250 training day, which nets to a 0.5 lb loss per week. I can make strength gains eating this way, albeit slow. Given my target weight of 167, it will take me another 6 weeks to shed the final 3 pounds. So 12 weeks total.

Cliffs... I save two months of time doing it this way currently (my goal of obtaining a six pack limits my gaining ability, such is life). That's two months where I can go to a straight bulk and accelerate gains. Essentially my theory is... accelerate fast loss, which allows me to get back to gaining faster.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:30 PM   #33
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How often do you switch up your workout routine? I have been on the same one for 5 months. I had good gains with it, time to switch and then go back.
I switch when I'm bored or just want to try something else. What I learned over the past 1.5 years of being serious. Everything works. Not because anything is good but because everything I've done has been based around all the big lifts.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:35 PM   #34
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The way I see it, to reach my aesthetic six pack goal I have two options scientifically:

1) Eat +500 calories of my TDEE on training days to build lean body mass. Eat -500 on rest days to burn fat. Working out 3 days a week, I would lose roughly half a pound of fat a week (slightly handicapped by minimal fat gain from training days, but likely negated by lean tissue increase to metabolism). It would take me roughly 20 weeks to achieve my goal of a six pack. (5 months, summer already over).

2) Do my current plan of -750 calories on rest days, -250 on training days. Working out 3 days a week, I will lose roughly a lb a week. I am at 176 lbs, so in 6 weeks I will weigh 170 lbs (end of may). This will put me at ~12% bf. Then switch to a -750 rest, +250 training day, which nets to a 0.5 lb loss per week. I can make strength gains eating this way, albeit slow. Given my target weight of 167, it will take me another 6 weeks to shed the final 3 pounds. So 12 weeks total.

Cliffs... I save two months of time doing it this way currently (my goal of obtaining a six pack limits my gaining ability, such is life). That's two months where I can go to a straight bulk and accelerate gains. Essentially my theory is... accelerate fast loss, which allows me to get back to gaining faster.

My first question to you is......what type of lifting program/approach are you using on your 3 W/O days? Are you spending those 3 days working the sh|t out of your compound lifts to accelerate the process?

My second question to you is.....why the hell did you wait this long to start "working on your summer body" (...I do giggle like a school girl whenever somebody talks about abs and the summer because it's amusing to me; it's nothing personal )? My frame of mind is to keep visible abs year round. No need for bulks. No need for cuts (..in the traditional sense; I've just recently dialed down my sugars and carbs).

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Old 04-19-2013, 12:37 PM   #35
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I switch when I'm bored or just want to try something else. What I learned over the past 1.5 years of being serious. Everything works. Not because anything is good but because everything I've done has been based around all the big lifts.
Bingo!!!!!
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:42 PM   #36
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I always have to ask you twice to get a clear answer from you. Are you like that in general?

Now I see your point.

You should bother arguing with me because I make you feel good. One day we'll spar and see how much BB benefited you. Just give me sometime to get stronger. My brother who had a Jung Sim Do dojo used to bring policemen to spar for their training. I used to spar with them TKD and it was a blast. Big slow guys. But if they get a hit on me I was screwed.

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Your naivety has absolutely nothing to do with the substance of my argument that, just for clarification states: for RAW STRENGTH AND POWER....I'll say it again......RAW STRENGTH AND POWER..........barbell work owns dumbbell work. That has been proven time & time again, and the biggest, strongest, fastest guys ALMOST ALWAYS work the barbell primarily; everything else is secondary or tertiary.

You are missing the core argument in favor of barbell work, which is.....OVERALL BODY STIMULATION/GROWTH. Let me repeat that once more....OVERALL BODY STIMULATION/GROWTH. The dumbbells WILL NOT provide OVERALL BODY STIMULATION/GROWTH.

I don't even know why I bother arguing with you about this.
Like I said before I do both but I focus more on DB bench press.

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zoo you fail to realize that stimulating the central nervous system = the key to gaining mass. Accessory work doesn't even come close to achieving the type of CNS stimulation that a heavy barbell does. When you blast the CNS with barbell training, it releases growth hormone, testosterone, and another type of growth hormone that I cannot for the life of me recall right now.

myopic lol, now I'm myopic and naive. I wonder what you'll call me next.
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The problem is....to him, the term "mass" means "big & fat". His perspective is so myopic (..because he's a n00b who has a hard time listening to people who have been there and done that) that he just can't fathom the information that is being presented to him.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:44 PM   #37
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I'm with you on that Mike Larry, if I only cared about raw strength numbers I wouldn't be cutting right now. But I'm starting to get addicted to chasing numbers, and I have a feeling you might too... you never know. I'm finding all the myths I believed in about strength are not true (looking like a bodybuilder).

I also play hockey competitively, so I have strength and agility / endurance goals for that as well.

Essentially I want to look my best, and be an overall more stronger / useful human. Who wouldn't want that?
yea i see what you mean. i care more about what i see in the mirror, and my numbers are a secondary indicator of progress in terms of my overall physique, whereas strength guys primarily care about numbers, and what they see in the mirror is a secondary indicator of that progress. in the end, the goals are probably fairly similar and it'd probably help to adopt their mindset.

just an aside: i went to pennstate for college and i know for a fact that, before the whole pedophile scandal and overhaul of the coaching staff, the old football program used only machines for the team's strength training. they completely, 100% shut out any training with free weights. it annoyed the hell out of my friends and i
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:45 PM   #38
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So we're on the same page. You made it sound like it's bad to switch routines. I do all of big lifts. But for chest I focus on DB presses more than BB.

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I switch when I'm bored or just want to try something else. What I learned over the past 1.5 years of being serious. Everything works. Not because anything is good but because everything I've done has been based around all the big lifts.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:47 PM   #39
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If all you cared about was raw strength numbers, you really wouldn't need to cut. The amount of molecular, musculoskeletal and hormonal stimulation that is derived from strength lifting would melt fat off of you.
Ok, maybe you've never been there so you don't know. But what you say here is absolutely incorrect. Body just doesn't work that way.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:48 PM   #40
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Holy cow, you went to PSU? Me too for undergrad. Which year did you graduate? Which major?

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yea i see what you mean. i care more about what i see in the mirror, and my numbers are a secondary indicator of progress in terms of my overall physique, whereas strength guys primarily care about numbers, and what they see in the mirror is a secondary indicator of that progress. in the end, the goals are probably fairly similar and it'd probably help to adopt their mindset.

just an aside: i went to pennstate for college and i know for a fact that, before the whole pedophile scandal and overhaul of the coaching staff, the old football program used only machines for the team's strength training. they completely, 100% shut out any training with free weights. it annoyed the hell out of my friends and i
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