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Old 04-19-2013, 12:51 PM   #41
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Holy cow, you went to PSU? Me too for undergrad. Which year did you graduate? Which major?
class of 07, mechanical engineering.
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Keep calling me naive master, that's really helping your argument. lol

Yes, exactly like Rippetoe's leg press vs squat example. In this case DB bench press = squat, BB bench = leg press.

Wanna bet? I did this with 2 people at my gym last year as we were debating the same exact topic. Asked a stranger in gym that was benching 340lbs to try with DBs, he could not get 140lbs DBs. A guy that can bench heavy DBs can bench heavy on BB, but not the inverse.

I don't get your logic unless I'm missing something.
i BB bench 225, but DB bench 200
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:52 PM   #42
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Ok, maybe you've never been there so you don't know. What what you say here is absolutely incorrect. Body just doesn't work that way.
The big lifts DO, in fact, affect the CNS which directly relates to hormonal changes. The big lifts DO, in fact, affect metabolism (..thus affecting fat loss/lean body gains). We're not discussing isolated issues that might differ from person to person (..certain medical issues that might impair gains that the AVERAGE person would achieve).


What do you mean, "I haven't been there?" Are you referring to fat/over-weight? No, I've never been fat/over-weight (...I've been an athlete my entire life), BUT I have put on fat.......more fat than I'm personally comfortable with, and I've never "cut". What I HAVE done is clean up my diet, lift heavier/more frequently and most importantly, BEEN PATIENT. The fat comes off relatively quickly when my ducks are in a row. Somebody with less muscle and more fat may require more time, but the approach is just the same. The only difference - barring medical issues - is the amount of time it'll take to achieve, and that time is affected by the approach that is used. I will shed fat faster lifting heavier and with greater intensity than doing a basic cardio program (...and I don't experience significant muscle loss in the process).

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Old 04-19-2013, 12:58 PM   #43
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:07 PM   #44
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M3inline6, you lost the fat by creating a caloric deficit. Then put on muscle mass with a caloric surplus using a clean diet. You may have lifted and lifted big during all this process, but this simply helped you to not lose too much lbm while in a deficit, and gain even more while in a surplus. It's what it is dude

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Old 04-19-2013, 01:08 PM   #45
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I see from your posts that you DB press, so your numbers make sense.

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class of 07, mechanical engineering.

i BB bench 225, but DB bench 200
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:17 PM   #46
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M3inline6, you lost the fat by creating a caloric deficit. Then put on muscle mass with a caloric surplus using a clean diet. You may have lifted and lifted big during all this process, but this simply helped you to not lose too much lbm while in a deficit, and gain even more while in a surplus. It's what it is dude

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Caloric deficit? Me? LMAO! ME? Do you follow my eating habits dude? Everybody here knows that I eat just about whatever I want, whenever I want! I don't eat clean like bimmerchop, DylloS, dabears, etc. Hell, if I only eat out once a day I feel like I ate "clean as f@ck". I have ALWAYS been a heavy lifter man. Nothing has changed. IF I did eat clean, my body would probably look incredible. Right now it just looks great.

...and I'm only able to eat this way because I f@ck sh|t up in the gym something fierce. It's all metabolic!

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Old 04-19-2013, 01:20 PM   #47
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Caloric deficit? Me? LMAO! ME? Do you follow my eating habits dude? Everybody here knows that I eat just about whatever I want, whenever I want! I don't eat clean like bimmerchop, DylloS, dabears, etc. Hell, if I only eat out once a day I feel like I ate "clean as f@ck". I have ALWAYS been a heavy lifter man. Nothing has changed. IF I did eat clean, my body would probably look incredible. Right now it just looks fantastic.

...and I'm only able to eat this way because I f@ck sh|t up in the gym something fierce. It's all metabolic!
I don't follow your eating habits, but apparently you didn't as well. And I'm talking about the time when you were unknowingly cutting in the past, not now

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Old 04-19-2013, 01:27 PM   #48
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I don't follow your eating habits, but apparently you didn't as well. And I'm talking about the time when you were unknowingly cutting in the past, not now

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That's my point bro. My eating habits haven't ever changed. My caloric dependency has never changed. I may have "manipulated the macros", but I have NEVER, EVER cut calories to any significant degree. I was/am the dude with a vascular 6-pack walking into the gym eating a gallon of cookies & cream ice cream, pissing off everybody who just finished an hour of cardio.

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Old 04-19-2013, 01:40 PM   #49
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Yeah, but what you're saying has changed now. You say you didn't cut calories to any significant degree, which was enough for you.

It all boils down to this as long as you have 46 chromosomes and a mammal: As long as somebody is in a caloric surplus at the end of the day (read: no matter how clean you eat, all protein included and/or how heavy you lift), there is not a finite time period in your physiology where losing fat and building muscle happens at the same time. The body will find a way to store that extra protein as fat.

This period is manipulated in different cut/bulk routines to maximize the efficiency for different metabolisms (such as Berkhan's leangains or Lyle's UD.2, or SFP), but will always be different for different people.

That being said, I envy your body and hope I'll be there someday myself (no h0m0)...
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:53 PM   #50
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My first question to you is......what type of lifting program/approach are you using on your 3 W/O days? Are you spending those 3 days working the sh|t out of your compound lifts to accelerate the process?

My second question to you is.....why the hell did you wait this long to start "working on your summer body" (...I do giggle like a school girl whenever somebody talks about abs and the summer because it's amusing to me; it's nothing personal )? My frame of mind is to keep visible abs year round. No need for bulks. No need for cuts (..in the traditional sense; I've just recently dialed down my sugars and carbs).
squats/rom dl/calf raises day 1
bench/incline bench/pushups day 2
deadlifts/overhead press/chin ups/barbell row day 3

I max out squats/bench/deadlift/press for 5 reps, its a very intense level for me. Injury chance is high, and I'm grunting/sweating/pushing my body to limit. I do this everytime i step foot in the gym. If I'm doing 5 reps... it means I cannot, no matter what, get a sixth rep without sacrificing form to the point of injury / failing. That's my definition of "heavy & intense".

I completely agree with your frame of mind! That's my goal. And I know the exact way to achieve it. But if you don't start with a lean frame to begin with, science dictates that you need to be in an overall caloric deficit week in week out until you do. It's just a straight scientific fact (that SeanC has pointed out much more eloquently).

There is also a SIGNIFICANT metabolic advantage at a sub 15% bodyfat level when gaining lean tissue, that assists in eliminating the extra body fat addition. Essentially, the less body fat you have, the harder it is to put it back on. And on the flip side, the more body fat you have, the easier it is to add. The more LBM you have, the more calories you require in a day as well.

I no longer believe in bulking/cutting in a traditional sense. So essentially, I can either slowly recomposition my body by eating less on rest days and more on training days, or I can do a straight cut now and leave my 15-16% bodyfat self in the window for the rest of my life (hopefully).

And I waited this long because I wanted to add as much lean tissue as possible before I knew I absolutely had to start the cut! I wanted to cut down back in November but yourself & others convinced me not to... and I'm glad you did. But I can use the summer as my excuse now to get it done
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:00 PM   #51
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Yeah, but what you're saying has changed now. You say you didn't cut calories to any significant degree, which was enough for you.
I used the statement "to any significant degree" because I try extremely hard to stay away from definitive statements. So I use, "likely/generally/almost always/etc." very, very often. My point was simply....what I didn't gain from a reduction in calories (..because I don't WANT to completely give up foods that I like such as pizza, ice cream and In & Out), I made up for in activity and the intensity for which I trained that activity. So in support of your argument (..which on the scientific basis I cannot argue with), my deficit came by way of the increased activity level rather than a reduction in the calories consumed. In dabears situation, his diet is already pretty well formulated. Nobody really needs to preach to him about diet because that is one thing that he really puts the time and effort into. I merely suggested that he spend his time lifting smarter, heavier and more efficiently rather than cutting his calories so significantly as to affect the gains that he has achieved. The increased stimulus from the increased physical exertion is bound to have a profound effect on him.


edit: And it would seem that dabears has already addressed his W/O approach. Well done!




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That being said, I envy your body and hope I'll be there someday myself (no h0m0)...
You'll get there man!

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Old 04-19-2013, 02:05 PM   #52
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so far over the past 3 weeks my lifts have gone up btw... if I notice my lifts going down (evidence of muscle loss) then I would immediately increase calories. strength maintenance is #1 priority, I'm not that vain! haha
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:07 PM   #53
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squats/rom dl/calf raises day 1
bench/incline bench/pushups day 2
deadlifts/overhead press/chin ups/barbell row day 3

I max out squats/bench/deadlift/press for 5 reps, its a very intense level for me. Injury chance is high, and I'm grunting/sweating/pushing my body to limit. I do this everytime i step foot in the gym. If I'm doing 5 reps... it means I cannot, no matter what, get a sixth rep without sacrificing form to the point of injury / failing. That's my definition of "heavy & intense".

I completely agree with your frame of mind! That's my goal. And I know the exact way to achieve it. But if you don't start with a lean frame to begin with, science dictates that you need to be in an overall caloric deficit week in week out until you do. It's just a straight scientific fact (that SeanC has pointed out much more eloquently).

There is also a SIGNIFICANT metabolic advantage at a sub 15% bodyfat level when gaining lean tissue, that assists in eliminating the extra body fat addition. Essentially, the less body fat you have, the harder it is to put it back on. And on the flip side, the more body fat you have, the easier it is to add. The more LBM you have, the more calories you require in a day as well.

I no longer believe in bulking/cutting in a traditional sense. So essentially, I can either slowly recomposition my body by eating less on rest days and more on training days, or I can do a straight cut now and leave my 15-16% bodyfat self in the window for the rest of my life (hopefully).

And I waited this long because I wanted to add as much lean tissue as possible before I knew I absolutely had to start the cut! I wanted to cut down back in November but yourself & others convinced me not to... and I'm glad you did. But I can use the summer as my excuse now to get it done

I like it!
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:11 PM   #54
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I want to look back on all my posts this time next year and go "I finally put my money where my mouth is". I had 2 years of failure that I always have in the back of my mind, pushing me.

Until then its all planning and assuming results, the work still has to be done day in and day out!
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:22 PM   #55
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I used the statement "to any significant degree" because I try extremely hard to stay away from definitive statements. So I use, "likely/generally/almost always/etc." very, very often. My point was simply....what I didn't gain from a reduction in calories (..because I don't WANT to completely give up foods that I like such as pizza, ice cream and In & Out), I made up for in activity and the intensity for which I trained that activity. So in support of your argument (..which on the scientific basis I cannot argue with), my deficit came by way of the increased activity level rather than a reduction in the calories consumed. In dabears situation, his diet is already pretty well formulated. Nobody really needs to preach to him about diet because that is one thing that he really puts the time and effort into. I merely suggested that he spend his time lifting smarter, heavier and more efficiently rather than cutting his calories so significantly as to affect the gains that he has achieved. The increased stimulus from the increased physical exertion is bound to have a profound effect on him.


edit: And it would seem that dabears has already addressed his W/O approach. Well done!


You'll get there man!
I agree with all of this

See you at 6% body fat. Hah, I'll be happy with 10.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:28 PM   #56
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learning the barbell movements was the single greatest thing I've done in my 3 year lifting career. It changed everything for me. I've always known the standard nutrition protocols, it was the change in workout philosophy that got me started. My confidence level has never been higher that I can hit my goals

these days I mostly research nutrition to help others and to make sure I'm on top of the ever changing landscape. And to find evil little tricks

Edit: I'll be switching gyms after summer, and learning the olympic lifts. I always seek new challenges, and this seems like the next logical step. Can't wait
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:39 PM   #57
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I agree with all of this

See you at 6% body fat. Hah, I'll be happy with 10.

I figured that we were saying the same thing, just from different ends of the spectrum. You can achieve and maintain 10% on a diet that allows for some latitude in your eating (...i.e..the 80/20 ratio, which is more or less my approach). I'm looking forward to hearing about your progress.



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learning the barbell movements was the single greatest thing I've done in my 3 year lifting career. It changed everything for me. I've always known the standard nutrition protocols, it was the change in workout philosophy that got me started. My confidence level has never been higher that I can hit my goals

these days I mostly research nutrition to help others and to make sure I'm on top of the ever changing landscape. And to find evil little tricks

Edit: I'll be switching gyms after summer, and learning the olympic lifts. I always seek new challenges, and this seems like the next logical step. Can't wait
That's the point that I'm at now. It has added an entirely new level of depth and excitement to my training, and a new level of excitement to achieving a goal. The great thing about transitioning over to the OLY lifts are the increase in options for programs, the technicality, the confidence building, etc. I was seriously acting like a kid in a candy store when I finally ventured into an OLY lifting gym and was able to fully assess myself on the primary OLY lift that I had been practicing - the Power Clean - and to determine if the work was going to pay off when I could really load some weight on the bar. All that kept repeating in my head was Jeremy's statement, "Your Power Clean won't improve until you can drop the weight dude!" I managed to Power Clean 225 lbs. once (...and the heaviest that I had ever attempted in a corporate gym was 185 lbs. I believe, but I feared going too much higher because I couldn't drop the weight if I failed). That, to me, was more than I expected from myself, and it was the highlight of my night. Now I'm going to continue to work heavy Clean Pulls to improve the power in the 1st and 2nd pull portions of the Clean. I'm sure this will greatly assist me when I begin working on the Snatch as well.

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Old 04-19-2013, 02:46 PM   #58
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haha thats great. I've learned the front squat, deadlift, overhead press, squat which I believe sets me up for success with oly lifts. I have never performed the movement, because I wanted to be able to learn from the beginning by dropping it. Just the act of dropping a heavy weight (and learning not to be scared of getting crushed) will be uncomfortable / nerve racking I think... hence wanting to start everything from a low weight at once
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:54 PM   #59
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haha thats great. I've learned the front squat, deadlift, overhead press, squat which I believe sets me up for success with oly lifts. I have never performed the movement, because I wanted to be able to learn from the beginning by dropping it. Just the act of dropping a heavy weight (and learning not to be scared of getting crushed) will be uncomfortable / nerve racking I think... hence wanting to start everything from a low weight at once

You're doing the right thing. Those lifts are imperative to performing the PC, the Clean, the Snatch, etc. I can't believe there are people in this world who DON'T like this stuff (...referring to weight training).

P.S. After I Power Cleaned 225 lbs., a beastly (..and lean) 230 lb., 6' 2" senior Rugby player with a neck like a tree trunk Power Cleaned 315 lbs. My dick shrank at that moment. He's going to coach me in the Overhead Squat. Damn I'm hyper just thinking about it.

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Old 04-19-2013, 03:06 PM   #60
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My best advice is learn the full clean before getting to high on the power clean. It kind of messed up my progress because I really have no idea how to full clean properly.
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