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Old 05-03-2013, 01:20 PM   #21
Grande D
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6 and 7. I meant upper and lower- as well as 4 (not 100% sure if the last one has been done).

Edit: 6 and 7 are fresh Lemforder ball joints. 4 has been replaced by the street bushing version that comes with Turner's RLCAs.

Last edited by Grande D; 05-03-2013 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:24 PM   #22
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6 and 7 are balljoints on the M, yes. the balljoints typically don't develop play too often. the inner bushings 4 and 5 get soft.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:41 PM   #23
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6 and 7 are balljoints on the M, yes. the balljoints typically don't develop play too often. the inner bushings 4 and 5 get soft.
Oh, Oh! Ball joints, sounds like NVH to me. Mango, go with the mushy squishy 323 stock rubbers all around! They be what BMW planned for you to do.

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Old 05-03-2013, 01:42 PM   #24
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I've never heard of Powerflex Bushings failing except in that one post Mango has supplied. Mine are absolutely okay. The NVH is mildly increased. The ride is stiffer. My RTABs have developed a squeak though. I don't have anything bad to say about PU bushings structurally. Having said that, I will be buying Meyle HD FCABs and Lemforder RTABs w/ limiters whenever I decide to replace these (if ever). There aren't any major advantages to the PU bushings other than longevity. I think limiters mostly solve that for the RTABs and the Meyle HD FCABs are supposed to last quite a while now I think.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:52 PM   #25
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Oh, Oh! Ball joints, sounds like NVH to me. Mango, go with the mushy squishy 323 stock rubbers all around! They be what BMW planned for you to do.

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Not sure what you mean by "323 stock rubbers." 323s, 328s, 325s, 330s, and M3s all use balljoints in some manner or another in the rear. Not sure what you are saying.

I have no problems with increased NVH. I have a problem with band-aid solutions that are unnecessarily stiff in the wrong locations.
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Old 05-03-2013, 02:31 PM   #26
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Not sure what you mean by "323 stock rubbers."... Not sure what you are saying.
Never mind, Mango!
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Old 05-03-2013, 02:41 PM   #27
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I've never heard of Powerflex Bushings failing except in that one post Mango has supplied. Mine are absolutely okay. The NVH is mildly increased. The ride is stiffer. My RTABs have developed a squeak though. I don't have anything bad to say about PU bushings structurally. Having said that, I will be buying Meyle HD FCABs and Lemforder RTABs w/ limiters whenever I decide to replace these (if ever). There aren't any major advantages to the PU bushings other than longevity. I think limiters mostly solve that for the RTABs and the Meyle HD FCABs are supposed to last quite a while now I think.
Meyle RTABs are very difficult to install because of their design. Go with Lemforder. And the bushings should still be replaced every 40-50k miles with any rubber variant- limited or not.

What grease did you use on your RTABs?
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:11 PM   #28
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umm unless i'm ready this wrong this is all the same thread and it's not even due to poly rear trailing arm bushings. that's the E36 issue and happens to stock bushings
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:13 PM   #29
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yeah, but not for the rtab location...
They used to, and others still do. So...?

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Old 05-03-2013, 03:15 PM   #30
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Meyle RTABs are very difficult to install because of their design. Go with Lemforder. And the bushings should still be replaced every 40-50k miles with any rubber variant- limited or not.

What grease did you use on your RTABs?
That's why I said Lem RTABs and Meyle FCABs.

I used some Copper anti-seize.

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umm unless i'm ready this wrong this is all the same thread and it's not even due to poly rear trailing arm bushings. that's the E36 issue and happens to stock bushings

That's how I interpreted it as well.
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:17 PM   #31
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umm unless i'm ready this wrong this is all the same thread and it's not even due to poly rear trailing arm bushings. that's the E36 issue and happens to stock bushings
Same thread, different experiences. One PF rtab cracked, one had pocket failures that may have been caused/exacerbated by stiff poly bushings. Just food for thought.
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:21 PM   #32
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They were easier to install- and with poly you do not have to "replace often" as you say to do with rubber RTABs.

Alex, where I lived with my last ZHP (in PA) there is plenty of salt and snow. There is no problem with them from a grease/noise perspective in poor weather.

I wouldn't use poly anywhere else because other locations have a more dramatic impact on NVH. Although I have considered coupling poly FCABs with FSD shocks- but I don't think it's worth the effort to try it as it probably wouldn't work out that well.
My car with poly RTABs actually feels more stable in the back than an E36 M3 I drive regularly with more things replaced in the back and M3 RTABs with Limiters- though the difference is slight.
I do know jvit, and when I had my E36 M3 I respected his opinion quite a lot, but neither I nor a few other E46 M3 owners I hang out with have had any issues with poly RTABs. Also- E36 RTAB pockets are weak and I don't think correlation=causation from that standpoint.
I don't mean to call out Vorshlag- but binding sounds like improper/insufficient use of the copper anti-sieze, which is crucial with any poly bushing.
ok well good to know about weather not causing them to strip the grease out sooner.

i agree, haven't heard anyone really complain or have issue with this "binding". this is only a Vorslag thing and i have never heard anyone else talk of it. i notice they also group in this finding under the same blanket with front control arm bushings. now front i won't use and have friends in the business admit the fronts at the wishbone "pins" can elongate over time and not return back to original mold shape. this is different in overall design and flexing than what the rtab does.
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:24 PM   #33
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Same thread, different experiences. One PF rtab cracked, one had pocket failures that may have been caused/exacerbated by stiff poly bushings. Just food for thought.
So no structural failures. A bushing may have cracked, but that is no worse than the OEM parts. Those fail horribly. It also sounds like an isolated incident.
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:25 PM   #34
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ok well good to know about weather not causing them to strip the grease out sooner.

i agree, haven't heard anyone really complain or have issue with this "binding". this is only a Vorslag thing and i have never heard anyone else talk of it. i notice they also group in this finding under the same blanket with front control arm bushings. now front i won't use and have friends in the business admit the fronts at the wishbone "pins" can elongate over time and not return back to original mold shape. this is different in overall design and flexing than what the rtab does.
IIRC, you also have never heard of anyone overfilling by 1qt oil at the track. Common knowledge among BMW driving circles Just saying, just cause you've never heard of it doesn't mean it's not possible or it doesn't happen. It makes perfect sense as that bushing is made to deflect in several different directions within the context of a street vehicle. If you have high spring rates, as Vorshlag states, then movement will be limited and thus your chances of "binding" are lower. For the streets though, it's still good to have compliance in that specific location.

What were your personal reasons, Alex, for going with poly? More feedback?
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:27 PM   #35
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So no structural failures. A bushing may have cracked, but that is no worse than the OEM parts. Those fail horribly. It also sounds like an isolated incident.
They fail when you don't replace the bushings periodically. Everyone who's had an RTAB failure is riding on 10 year old bushings. It requires a special tool and alignment procedures and isn't exactly a common newbie DIY project
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:47 PM   #36
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I just don't get the dislike of poly bushings when nobody can provide any evidence that there are real problems with them. I don't see the poly RTAB causing problems with binding either. The OEM bushing moved at most a few degrees during the full travel of the wheel. The poly RTAB still provides compliance. It is just stiffer. My car with poly FCABs and RTABs rides over all sorts of bumps perfectly. I don't hear anything weird nor do I feel anything that I could attribute to binding. Everything else I hear about PF bushings is positive (minus the squeak issue). Only Vorschlag and yourself seem to have a problem with them.
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:48 PM   #37
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IIRC, you also have never heard of anyone overfilling by 1qt oil at the track. Common knowledge among BMW driving circles Just saying, just cause you've never heard of it doesn't mean it's not possible or it doesn't happen. It makes perfect sense as that bushing is made to deflect in several different directions within the context of a street vehicle. If you have high spring rates, as Vorshlag states, then movement will be limited and thus your chances of "binding" are lower. For the streets though, it's still good to have compliance in that specific location.

What were your personal reasons, Alex, for going with poly? More feedback?
Meh. All this talk of deflection. If you want softer than PF, go AKG. We aren't exactly talking about solid aluminum here my friend.
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:49 PM   #38
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Meh. All this talk of deflection. If you want softer than PF, go AKG. We aren't exactly talking about solid aluminum here my friend.
The material is just not meant for that location. I wonder what TerraPhantm has to say about it? What does he run?

http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost....5&postcount=17
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:52 PM   #39
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I just don't get the dislike of poly bushings when nobody can provide any evidence that there are real problems with them. I don't see the poly RTAB causing problems with binding either. The OEM bushing moved at most a few degrees during the full travel of the wheel. The poly RTAB still provides compliance. It is just stiffer. My car with poly FCABs and RTABs rides over all sorts of bumps perfectly. I don't hear anything weird nor do I feel anything that I could attribute to binding. Everything else I hear about PF bushings is positive (minus the squeak issue). Only Vorschlag and yourself seem to have a problem with them.
Aside from the potential binding ESPECIALLY on a stock suspension, if you haven't reinforced your subframe mounting area to any degree yet, I'd be very careful at those stiffer bushings (by your own admission) causing extra unnecessary forces on your subframe mounting area.

Further, if you want stiffer, extra feel, etc., why not change out your trailing arm bushing on the RLCA outer to a balljoint rather than bushing? That will give you meaningful BMW ///M-tuned precision stiffness rather than jamming in a plastic bushing, IMO.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:08 PM   #40
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The material is just not meant for that location. I wonder what TerraPhantm has to say about it? What does he run?

http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost....5&postcount=17
Dunno. Am I supposed to?

This discussion is getting absurd. Using PF RTABs will not cause subframe failure. Each option has its pros and cons and neither is decisively "better" than the other. I will admit that, you should as well.
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