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Suspension & Braking
Have some questions about suspension or brake setups for your E46 BMW? Get all your answers here!

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Old 05-03-2013, 04:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Grande D View Post
Dunno. Am I supposed to?

This discussion is getting absurd. Using PF RTABs will not cause subframe failure. Each option has its pros and cons and neither is decisively "better" than the other. I will admit that, you should as well.
I think the discussion is going quite well. Nobody is at eachother's throats. It's fairly civil, IMO.

Nobody said poly rtabs will cause subframe mounting failure. It certainly won't help though with added stress/vibration of the stiffer trailing arm bushing. A sh!t-ton of forces go through the trailing arm and guess where it's going? Not upwards, but sideways.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:15 PM   #42
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They fail when you don't replace the bushings periodically. Everyone who's had an RTAB failure is riding on 10 year old bushings. It requires a special tool and alignment procedures and isn't exactly a common newbie DIY project
Now hold on there cowboy!
As I said before in this thread, my M3+limiters RTABs didn't get past 40k. Sort of like wot your link to Terra said about PF's.
"Special tool and alignment procedures" ? Tool yes, alignment standard. With the tool it is an easy job, even for a relative gnewbie.

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Old 05-03-2013, 04:27 PM   #43
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Now hold on there cowboy!
As I said before in this thread, my M3+limiters RTABs didn't get past 40k. Sort of like wot your link to Terra said about PF's.
"Special tool and alignment procedures" ? Tool yes, alignment standard. With the tool it is an easy job, even for a relative gnewbie.

Murf
I'm talking about the alignment of the bushing carrier relative to the trailing arm. Not the car's alignment. Further, that was not Terra in that link. You seem to be misunderstanding everything I am saying and not reading carefully.

Further, stock RTABs aren't supposed to go past 40k. I recommend changing them every 20.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:39 PM   #44
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I'm talking about the alignment of the bushing carrier relative to the trailing arm. Not the car's alignment. Further, that was not Terra in that link. You seem to be misunderstanding everything I am saying and not reading carefully.

Further, stock RTABs aren't supposed to go past 40k. I recommend changing them every 20.
Mango, I have no problem with reading comprehension. Excuse me, but when you say, "I wonder what TerraPhantm has to say about it?" and supply a link, I assumed you were supplying backup for your assertion. I guess you didn't.
And my Bentley says nothing about "the alignment of the bushing carrier relative to the trailing arm", so where did that issue come from?
If you recommend changing RTABs every 20k, even more reason to go poly!

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Old 05-03-2013, 04:41 PM   #45
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Sorry Mango, I have no problem with reading comprehension. But when you say, "I wonder what TerraPhantm has to say about it?" and supply a link, I assumed you were supplying backup for your assertion. I guess you didn't.
And my Bentley says nothing about "the alignment of the bushing carrier relative to the trailing arm", so where did that issue come from?
If you recommend changing RTABs every 20k, even more reason to go poly!

Murf
You're missing the point. My point for bringing up procedures was a response to WDE. Nobody else. I was stating people who have experienced blown rubber RTABs are usually ones that are on original RTABs. Lots of people have original RTABs because the RTAB job requires special tools and procedures that aren't typically friendly with people new to DIYing.

of course, this could have been avoided if you simply read the thread.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:43 PM   #46
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Mango, I have no problem with reading comprehension. Excuse me, but when you say, "I wonder what TerraPhantm has to say about it?" and supply a link, I assumed you were supplying backup for your assertion. I guess you didn't.
And my Bentley says nothing about "the alignment of the bushing carrier relative to the trailing arm", so where did that issue come from?
If you recommend changing RTABs every 20k, even more reason to go poly!

Murf
Responding to your edit:

And, no, the reason "not to go poly," is not due to maintenance intervals, it's due to, in my opinion, not being the appropriate part for that location on a street vehicle. Especially with those running on stock suspensions.

I'll maintain my vehicle as much as required to maintain its performance on a decent level. If that means replacing RTABs every 10k miles, 20k miles, 30k miles, I'll do it.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:45 PM   #47
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I'm talking about the alignment of the bushing carrier relative to the trailing arm. Not the car's alignment. Further, that was not Terra in that link. You seem to be misunderstanding everything I am saying and not reading carefully.

Further, stock RTABs aren't supposed to go past 40k. I recommend changing them every 20.
where did you see that listed, i don't recall seeing the RTABs listed although i know the front bushings are listed to inspect during the scheduled "Inspection I & II".
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And my Bentley says nothing about "the alignment of the bushing carrier relative to the trailing arm", so where did that issue come from?
it's listed as "pre-load" and there is an exact spec to set it to when installing. bmw has their own special tool for this aswell.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:46 PM   #48
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You're missing the point. My point for bringing up procedures was a response to WDE. Nobody else. I was stating people who have experienced blown rubber RTABs are usually ones that are on original RTABs. Lots of people have original RTABs because the RTAB job requires special tools and procedures that aren't typically friendly with people new to DIYing.

of course, this could have been avoided if you simply read the thread.
I read, and comprehend your post; it's not that complex. I just disagree & don't think you provided enough backing to make your point valid...and for all those who disagree with you to roll over & play dead.

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Old 05-03-2013, 04:51 PM   #49
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I read, and comprehend your post; it's not that complex. I just disagree & don't think you provided enough backing to make your point valid...and for all those who disagree with you to roll over & play dead.

Murf
I tend not to agree with parts that deviate far from the original BMW design and/or philosophy. If you do enough research on the history of BMW and the success of the 3-Series, you'll find that the BMW engineers purposefully and very specifically designed the suspension the way they did.

That's not to say everyone should keep their E46 suspension stock, but the basic properties of the trailing arm's function are compromised when that trailing arm is not allowed to deflect as designed. That's an overly stiff bushing where multi-axis compliance is of utmost importance on a street vehicle.

Both sides will use what they want to use.

We will agree to disagree and move on. But you all know my choice and position on the matter.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:53 PM   #50
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where did you see that listed, i don't recall seeing the RTABs listed although i know the front bushings are listed to inspect during the scheduled "Inspection I & II".

it's listed as "pre-load" and there is an exact spec to set it to when installing. bmw has their own special tool for this aswell.
Many aspects of our fanatical maintenance regimen here at E46fanatics aren't listed in BMW's service schedule. Transmission fluid isn't. The oil pan gasket isn't. Struts/shocks aren't.

This is about upkeep of performance, not routine maintenance. C'mon, Alex.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:55 PM   #51
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Responding to your edit:...in my opinion, not being the appropriate part for that location on a street vehicle. Especially with those running on stock suspensions.

I'll maintain my vehicle as much as required to maintain its performance on a decent level. If that means replacing RTABs every 10k miles, 20k miles, 30k miles, I'll do it.
Good for you, Mango. And I'll opt for something better: soft poly RTABs! Fixing broken cars is fun, but I'd prefer to be driving with a nice, tight suspension.
BMW is not spelled 'D-O-G', if you know what I mean. If it was so, there would be no reason for Maserati, Ferrari, etc. Or even Peugeot!

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Old 05-03-2013, 04:57 PM   #52
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Good for you, Mango. And I'll opt for something better: soft poly RTABs!
BMW is not spelled 'D-O-G', if you know what I mean. If it was so, there would be no reason for Maserati, Ferrari, etc. Or even Peugeot!

Murf
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about there I can sense the hostility in your responses lately. That's unfortunate
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:02 PM   #53
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I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about there I can sense the hostility in your responses lately. That's unfortunate
In my nicest voice, I think you need to take a reading comprehension course!!!

I'm not the one who says stuff like, "You seem to be misunderstanding everything I am saying and not reading carefully", or "of course, this could have been avoided if you simply read the thread".
It's pretty funny when you have to scramble like that, though.
And that's frustration you are hearing, not hostility.

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Old 05-03-2013, 05:13 PM   #54
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Good for you, Mango.

Murf
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And that's frustration you are hearing, not hostility.

Murf
Sorry if I was mistaken. You obviously have a lot riding on your RTAB purchase decision so your need to defend it is quite high as they cost a lot more than stock. I understand that.

But please keep the conversation pleasant or get blocked.

Alex, D, and myself can debate this while being civilized. I expect you do the same.
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:13 PM   #55
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The material is just not meant for that location. I wonder what TerraPhantm has to say about it? What does he run?
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost....5&postcount=17
well reading that whole thread and not just that one post one can see their is not the consensus that PF poly RTABs are causing problems. it also seem on some other early brand and again back to the E36 pocket.

http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthrea...=378468&page=4

also the "limiters" are "Delrin" which as we know is like a rock solid plastic. so while the stock rubber bushing is used, when at it's limits it's hitting the solid limiters. and that will not bind in the rotational axis, but will transmit and put likely more load on the mounting brackets thin metal around it as the trust pushes/twists it forward and/or aft. . i'm sure that bracket deflects more than what it's doing to the mounting pocket of the rear trailing arm mounting points..no? also to address the poly rtabs they have built-in "hats" or what the Delrin limiters try to duplicate being introduced as "limiters". so the way i see it (in this regards) the polyurethane will be more forgiving than the Delrin material anyday.


my thoughts on this. which are open for discussion and maybe a dispute. always like to see what others know or have proof of.
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:19 PM   #56
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well reading that whole thread and not just that one post one can see their is not the consensus that PF poly RTABs are causing problems. it also seem on some other early brand and again back to the E36 pocket.

http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthrea...=378468&page=4

also the "limiters" are "Delrin" which as we know is like a rock solid plastic. so while the stock rubber bushing is used, when at it's limits it's hitting the solid limiters. and that will not bind in the rotational axis, but will transmit and put likely more load on the mounting brackets thin metal around it as the trust pushes/twists it forward and/or aft. . i'm sure that bracket deflects more than what it's doing to the mounting pocket of the rear trailing arm mounting points..no? also to address the poly rtabs they have built-in "hats" or what the Delrin limiters try to duplicate being introduced as "limiters". so the way i see it (in this regards) the polyurethane will be more forgiving than the Delrin material anyday.


my thoughts on this. which are open for discussion and maybe a dispute. always like to see what others know or have proof of.
I'm not using limiters. You'll still keep your grand designation despite disagreeing with me on RTAB flavors.

Still, I'm not convinced polyurethane has the same deflection properties as rubber. To add to that, not sure how you could trust a bushing that you can press in with your fingers versus the stock bushing needing to be pressed in with force.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:08 PM   #57
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Sorry if I was mistaken. You obviously have a lot riding on your RTAB purchase decision so your need to defend it is quite high as they cost a lot more than stock. I understand that.

But please keep the conversation pleasant or get blocked.

Alex, D, and myself can debate this while being civilized. I expect you do the same.
My poly RTABs cost the same or less considering the mileage I will probably get out of them, plus the tool rental costs for rubber bushings.
Pls don't get high handed about this on me. As I just pointed out, you were first to go negative on me. Civil discourse requires people to be intellectually honest, and I don't always see you doing that. You often go "it's my way or the highway..." on people. You have staked out a position here which gives little leeway for a civil discussion.

As Grand D said, "This discussion is getting absurd...Each option has its pros and cons and neither is decisively "better" than the other. I will admit that, you should as well."
What's the prob?

You can block people? Now you're really scaring me.

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Old 05-03-2013, 06:11 PM   #58
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My poly RTABs cost the same or less considering the mileage I will probably get out of them.
Pls don't get high handed about this on me. As I just pointed out, you were first to go negative on me. Civil discourse requires people to be intellectually honest, and I don't always see you doing that. You often go "it's my way or the highway..." on people. You have staked out a position here which gives little leeway for a civil discussion.

As Grand D said, "This discussion is getting absurd...Each option has its pros and cons and neither is decisively "better" than the other. I will admit that, you should as well."
What's the prob?

Murf
I already said lets agree to disagree and this is a matter of preference. You kept going. Read the thread.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:19 PM   #59
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I already said lets agree to disagree and this is a matter of preference. You kept going. Read the thread.
That's the trouble: I read the thread well. Pls stop questioning my reading comprehension & bending what you have said whenever you get pinned.

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:37 PM   #60
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...it's listed as "pre-load" and there is an exact spec to set it to when installing. bmw has their own special tool for this as well.
Yes, but this "pre-load', or more properly the trailing arm angle when the RTAB is tightened down, is only needed when using rubber bushings. Poly bushings don't need the angle set, but the rubber ones do because they twist themselves around the big bolt every time the suspension goes up & down.

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