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Old 05-23-2013, 02:23 PM   #41
badfast
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Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
Actully she can't. If you invoke the 5th you don't testify, period. You don't give your side then decide you aren't talking when it comes to questioning your testimony. She's effectively waived it.

Cheap political points? Go get a job
Why? Being jobless pays so well. Thanks Obama.

Perhaps you need to get a job, or a new one, because it is apparent you suck at the one you currently have.

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Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
Maybe AOG can clarify....not really sure how this works...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...ed-to-testify/
AOG isn't qualified to clarify anything.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:30 PM   #42
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No, they're really shouldn't be. They're can't be separate standards for US citizens that serve either in the public or private sector.

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Why would that be different ? If you are under investigation for a crime in the private sector, you are not going to be retained during the investigation. Especially if your staff has already admitted to wrongdoing.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:33 PM   #43
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By not allowing people to exercise their constitutional right (ie, the 5th), you are advocating for regulating a persons right per the constitution.....politician or not.
Not if it is a part of the employment contract when you are hired.

Government employees should be held to a higher standard than the private sector.
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:17 PM   #44
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Oh really? Tell me again how the second amendment isn't regulated.
On principle, based on the way the constitution is written, all US citizens should be afforded such rights without being selective.

That said, I notice what I perceive to be a trend is that Republicans trample on other Constitutional Rights except for the 2nd Amendment. Why is that? . You don't have to answer...

Specific example is McCain and Lindsay Graham declaring to strip the Tsarnaev brother in Boston of his rights, declare him an enemy combatant, etc. Yet they support, and will fight tooth and nail, to preserve the 2nd Amendment while disregarding others as with the case with the Sandy Hook Shooting where Graham voted against any new gun legislation.

I'm sure there are examples form the Democrats as well, case in point is Drone targeting of US Citizens - in the news, today, the administration admitted to killing three other US citizens in addition to Anwar Al-Alaki. http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/22/politi...ans/index.html

This double standard, on both sides, really miffs me.

At the end of the day, I realize things aren't black and white as with the 2nd Amendment. Sure, everyone has the right to have arms, but what exactly does "arms" mean? Should everyone have the right to own and operate heavy weapon platforms such as Tanks? Hence the regulation.

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Old 05-23-2013, 04:19 PM   #45
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Why would that be different ? If you are under investigation for a crime in the private sector, you are not going to be retained during the investigation. Especially if your staff has already admitted to wrongdoing.
you explain it to me?

Why should a citizen in the private sector have the right to plead the 5th and not someone in public service? That's what we have investigative bodies and organizations for.

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Old 05-23-2013, 04:24 PM   #46
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If the testimony can be used against her in any subsequent criminal proceeding then the 5th can be properly invoked. Remember, this is sworn testimony. If some DA decided to charge her for this stuff it would be admissible evidence...even if she wasn't questioned initially in a criminal proceeding. Again, though, she waived it...because she's really smart.
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Old 05-23-2013, 05:00 PM   #47
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Top IRS official pleads the 5th rather than answer questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDydinanM View Post
On principle, based on the way the constitution is written, all US citizens should be afforded such rights without being selective.

That said, I notice what I perceive to be a trend is that Republicans trample on other Constitutional Rights except for the 2nd Amendment. Why is that? . You don't have to answer...

Specific example is McCain and Lindsay Graham declaring to strip the Tsarnaev brother in Boston of his rights, declare him an enemy combatant, etc. Yet they support, and will fight tooth and nail, to preserve the 2nd Amendment while disregarding others as with the case with the Sandy Hook Shooting where Graham voted against any new gun legislation.

I'm sure there are examples form the Democrats as well, case in point is Drone targeting of US Citizens - in the news, today, the administration admitted to killing three other US citizens in addition to Anwar Al-Alaki. http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/22/politi...ans/index.html

This double standard, on both sides, really miffs me.

At the end of the day, I realize things aren't black and white as with the 2nd Amendment. Sure, everyone has the right to have arms, but what exactly does "arms" mean? Should everyone have the right to own and operate heavy weapon platforms such as Tanks? Hence the regulation.
Terrible example. He could have easily been charged as an enemy combatant and they would have been in the right. BTW, I'm against most republican infringements as well, including the patriot act, the war on drugs, prostitution, drones, prisons, etc.


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Old 05-23-2013, 05:21 PM   #48
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Top IRS official pleads the 5th rather than answer questions.

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Terrible example. He could have easily been charged as an enemy combatant and they would have been in the right.
Under what grounds, legally, can a US citizen/US person be charged as an enemy combatant for physically committing a crime in their own country (US)?

I'm genuinely curious

Edit, never mind.

Apparently I think you can under the AUMF and public law 107-40. Such is the case of Padilla.




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Old 05-23-2013, 05:49 PM   #49
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you explain it to me?

Why should a citizen in the private sector have the right to plead the 5th and not someone in public service? That's what we have investigative bodies and organizations for.
Because...............I am not suggesting anyone 's constitutional rights be violated, just they should not be on the payroll earning 150k a year while they destroy evidence and conspire with others to get their story straight.
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Old 05-23-2013, 05:54 PM   #50
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Top IRS official pleads the 5th rather than answer questions.

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Because...............I am not suggesting anyone 's constitutional rights be violated, just they should not be on the payroll earning 150k a year while they destroy evidence and conspire with others to get their story straight.
You just said, in your prior post, public employee. That means everybody, including rank and file employees that earn way less than a six figure salary. You can even lump military members since technically, they are government employees.

No, I'm not convinced.


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Old 05-23-2013, 05:56 PM   #51
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[QUOTE=MDydinanM;15448646]On principle, based on the way the constitution is written, all US citizens should be afforded such rights without being selective.

That said, I notice what I perceive to be a trend is that Republicans trample on other Constitutional Rights except for the 2nd Amendment. Why is that? . You don't have to answer...



You seem to be awfully concerned about a bunch of govt employees engaging in abuse of power , but not the abuses suffered by private citizens that were abused by the IRS, non profit orgs or news organizations like the AP or computer hacking at CBS.

I don't care if they take the 5th. As long as they don't remain employed when they do it.


Specific example is McCain and Lindsay Graham declaring to strip the Tsarnaev brother in Boston of his rights, declare him an enemy combatant, etc. Yet they support, and will fight tooth and nail, to preserve the 2nd Amendment while disregarding others as with the case with the Sandy Hook Shooting where Graham voted against any new gun legislation.

I'm sure there are examples form the Democrats as well, case in point is Drone targeting of US Citizens - in the news, today, the administration admitted to killing three other US citizens in addition to Anwar Al-Alaki. http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/22/politi...ans/index.html

This double standard, on both sides, really miffs me.



[B]I don't agree with a lot of the things Obama does, but I don't have a problem with him killing Americans overseas with drones The Americans he killed were terrorists engaged in the murder of Americans, other Afghans and spreading their venom around the world. Their lives are not anymore precious than any other terrorist. Screw'm. If they don't want to die, they should stay home in the states and confine their propaganda to a website.


At the end of the day, I realize things aren't black and white as with the 2nd Amendment. Sure, everyone has the right to have arms, but what exactly does "arms" mean? Should everyone have the right to own and operate heavy weapon platforms such as Tanks? Hence the regulation.

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Old 05-23-2013, 06:01 PM   #52
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You seem to be awfully concerned about a bunch of govt employees engaging in abuse of power , but not the abuses suffered by private citizens that were abused by the IRS, non profit orgs or news organizations like the AP or computer hacking at CBS.

I don't care if they take the 5th. As long as they don't remain employed when they do it.
I don't understand what you're saying. If certain govt employees did something wrong and it affected private citizens/organizations, then absolutely they should be held accountable and/or removed from their jobs - is that not justice?

I think I've been saying that all along, that if wrong doing is found, then hold people accountable. Where I differ is casting a wide net of blame, specifically around the White House when this, in my opinion, seems to be an IRS issue - at the moment. I don't like how, when X organization does something wrong, Obama is immediately and automatically blamed without any thought other than "oh, he's the POTUS therefore he must have known and he must be involved" and "oh, it's so obvious" despite the lack of any hard evidence or link to wrong doing. Same goes for any president.

EDIT

any by the way, speaking of public officials losing their jobs, Lois Lerner has been replaced and has been put on administrative leave.

Also, lets not forget that Lois Lerner, reportedly, is:
Quote:
the IRS official who first publicly disclosed on May 10 that IRS agents had been targeting tea party and other conservative groups for additional scrutiny when they applied for tax-exempt status. At the time she apologized on behalf of the IRS, but it wasn't enough to stop a firestorm of criticism from the White House and Congress.
http://news.yahoo.com/irs-replaces-o...223044834.html

Strange how she tried to do the right thing in reporting this issue, and then pays for it....

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Old 05-23-2013, 06:51 PM   #53
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Under what grounds, legally, can a US citizen/US person be charged as an enemy combatant for physically committing a crime in their own country (US)?
If I had to argue it, I would point out that he is naturalized citizen. As a part of that, he had to take an oath to gain his naturalized citizenship. His actions show that his oath was taken under false pretenses. An outright lie if you will, thereby negating the deal and his citizenship.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:34 PM   #54
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You just said, in your prior post, public employee. That means everybody, including rank and file employees that earn way less than a six figure salary. You can even lump military members since technically, they are government employees.

No, I'm not convinced.


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You can easily make it apply only to senior positions, department heads, etc etc.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:37 PM   #55
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I don't understand what you're saying. If certain govt employees did something wrong and it affected private citizens/organizations, then absolutely they should be held accountable and/or removed from their jobs - is that not justice?

I think I've been saying that all along, that if wrong doing is found, then hold people accountable. Where I differ is casting a wide net of blame, specifically around the White House when this, in my opinion, seems to be an IRS issue - at the moment. I don't like how, when X organization does something wrong, Obama is immediately and automatically blamed without any thought other than "oh, he's the POTUS therefore he must have known and he must be involved" and "oh, it's so obvious" despite the lack of any hard evidence or link to wrong doing. Same goes for any president.

EDIT

any by the way, speaking of public officials losing their jobs, Lois Lerner has been replaced and has been put on administrative leave.

Also, lets not forget that Lois Lerner, reportedly, is:

http://news.yahoo.com/irs-replaces-o...223044834.html

Strange how she tried to do the right thing in reporting this issue, and then pays for it....
It would be justice if they were imprisoned....the same place you would end up in if you did something they didn't like...just ask Wesley Snipes. These people are in control of the lives of Americans. Abuse of that control in my America would be punishable by death, but I'll settle for jail time and a fine of every dollar the person earned from that position to be paid back.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:46 PM   #56
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Top IRS official pleads the 5th rather than answer questions.

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It would be justice if they were imprisoned....the same place you would end up in if you did something they didn't like...just ask Wesley Snipes. These people are in control of the lives of Americans. Abuse of that control in my America would be punishable by death, but I'll settle for jail time and a fine of every dollar the person earned from that position to be paid back.
Sure, let them go to prison. BUT let them be tried in a court, not by the media, hype, or popular public opinion.


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Old 05-23-2013, 07:54 PM   #57
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Sure, let them go to prison. BUT let them be tried in a court, not by the media, hype, or popular public opinion.


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Perfectly ok by me. Unfortunately, the bums in washington need this to be a full blown media/public scandal before they decide to charge them all....which they still haven't. Obama thought that if he fired Miller, everyone would just forget about it and be on their merry way. He isn't nearly as outraged as he needs to be about this. Im not blaming Obama for the scandal (I haven't seen any evidence of his involvement, although my personal opinion is that he knew about it) but I do blame him for not going apesh!t on them all. Carney is standing there blowing smoke up the American peoples' asses, and Obama is giving his same lame mantra of "we're gonna get to the bottom of it." Obama should do the right thing, and start investigating every single one of those a$$holes. Im not even going to start with the crap he let Holder get away with.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:16 PM   #58
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Perfectly ok by me. Unfortunately, the bums in washington need this to be a full blown media/public scandal before they decide to charge them all....which they still haven't. Obama thought that if he fired Miller, everyone would just forget about it and be on their merry way. He isn't nearly as outraged as he needs to be about this. Im not blaming Obama for the scandal (I haven't seen any evidence of his involvement, although my personal opinion is that he knew about it) but I do blame him for not going apesh!t on them all.
To be fair, the President has to be Presidential, yes? He's the leader of this country and must, or rather should, be calm, cool, collected and act professionally. By going bananas, or "ape sh*t" as you put it, wouldn't be very characteristic of a professional. Just my opinion.

Personal anecdote, I've worked with hot head leaders in the military. Wasn't always a pleasant experience and/or created an environment counterproductive for mission accomplishment.

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Old 05-23-2013, 08:25 PM   #59
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To be fair, the President has to be Presidential, yes? He's the leader of this country and must, or rather should, be calm, cool, collected and act professionally. By going bananas, or "ape sh*t" as you put it, wouldn't be very characteristic of a professional. Just my opinion.

Personal anecdote, I've worked with hot head leaders in the military. Wasn't always a pleasant experience and/or created an environment counterproductive for mission accomplishment.
Were they like R.Lee Ermy in Full Metal Jacket?

As for the apesh!t comment, I don't think he needs to start going all Gordon Ramsay on them, but I think Obama would score HUGE political points (with both sides and the people) if he just went "regular joe" for a sec, and combined his feel good speech with Boehner's speech...."This is terrible, this is dishonest, this is NOT the way my government will function, and I won't rest until someone is sitting in prison for it."
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:29 PM   #60
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Were they like R.Lee Ermy in Full Metal Jacket?
eh, boot camp/OCS is different.

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As for the apesh!t comment, I don't think he needs to start going all Gordon Ramsay on them, but I think Obama would score HUGE political points (with both sides and the people) if he just went "regular joe" for a sec, and combined his feel good speech with Boehner's speech...."This is terrible, this is dishonest, this is NOT the way my government will function, and I won't rest until someone is sitting in prison for it."
and this is not a good example? Or is he displaying crocodile tears? Both, more so the second video, seem pretty "regular joe" to me.




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