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Old 05-24-2013, 06:39 AM   #21
PEI330Ci
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Mert you perform 60-130 testing quite actively on public roads. Safety is not in your dictionary.
Who is the voice of reason now!
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:13 AM   #22
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Mert you perform 60-130 testing quite actively on public roads. Safety is not in your dictionary.
I am not safe and do take risks as there are no airfields and no tracks available.

And I dont DD my E46 m3.

I just wanted you to be on the safe side Clean wishes
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:09 PM   #23
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I am not safe and do take risks as there are no airfields and no tracks available.

And I dont DD my E46 m3.

I just wanted you to be on the safe side Clean wishes
Safe wishes to you as well
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:18 PM   #24
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I wish someone would win me a pony tail as if it were some stuffed animal prize at the next shift sector
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Old 05-24-2013, 06:02 PM   #25
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Silly question. Can you efficiently make an in-tank surgetank?
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Old 05-24-2013, 06:30 PM   #26
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Silly question. Can you efficiently make an in-tank surgetank?
You know I don't know...I was thinking about this last night and I think the OEM tank being plastic? (not sure) would be an issue. Regardless I'm sure if money wasn't an object it could be done but like you asked in your question I'm not sure how efficient it would be.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:50 PM   #27
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Silly question. Can you efficiently make an in-tank surgetank?
Yes, it's done all the time. ATL actually sells a kit to do it, and also offers bladder style cells with the pumps built in.



The ultimate solution I think is to make 2 billet canisters that mimic the OEM fuel tank covers. One canister would hold the pickup pumps that would pull fuel from both sides of the "saddle", the other canister would be the surge tank with output pump(s).

The "kit" would have the 2 canisters, and 2 push-lock fuel lines that would link the canisters which contained all of the plumbing and pumps mentioned above.

I envision a digital (Solid state) fuel pump controller to control all the pumps. One of the main features would be current monitoring of each pickup pump, to tell when current draw dropped below a defined threshold. This would mark the pump "running dry", and it could be cycled intermittently, or shut down with a warning light on a dash mounted status monitor. This also works as an indicator of a pump going bad, where operating current increases, and a warning can be triggered. For the output pump(s), I would run PWM channels with closed loop pressure control. No FPR would be required, just setting the target pressure based on a fuel pressure sensor mounted on or near the fuel rail. I would include an RPM based start-tapper to the pressure "map", so that you could idle large injectors at say 40psi, and ramp up to 70+ psi under load.

I realized these are complicated and expensive ideas to implement, but I believe an evolution in fuelling is required for current and future FI products. If we want OEM level functionality, we need engineering on that level to get it.

Kenton,

Sorry for the slight OT, but I believe some might enjoy my ideas. For example, you're build team....

Last edited by PEI330Ci; 05-24-2013 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:39 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
Yes, it's done all the time. ATL actually sells a kit to do it, and also offers bladder style cells with the pumps built in.



The ultimate solution I think is to make 2 billet canisters that mimic the OEM fuel tank covers. One canister would hold the pickup pumps that would pull fuel from both sides of the "saddle", the other canister would be the surge tank with output pump(s).

The "kit" would have the 2 canisters, and 2 push-lock fuel lines that would link the canisters which contained all of the plumbing and pumps mentioned above.

I envision a digital (Solid state) fuel pump controller to control all the pumps. One of the main features would be current monitoring of each pickup pump, to tell when current draw dropped below a defined threshold. This would mark the pump "running dry", and it could be cycled intermittently, or shut down with a warning light on a dash mounted status monitor. This also works as an indicator of a pump going bad, where operating current increases, and a warning can be triggered. For the output pump(s), I would run PWM channels with closed loop pressure control. No FPR would be required, just setting the target pressure based on a fuel pressure sensor mounted on or near the fuel rail. I would include an RPM based start-tapper to the pressure "map", so that you could idle large injectors at say 40psi, and ramp up to 70+ psi under load.

I realized these are complicated and expensive ideas to implement, but I believe an evolution in fuelling is required for current and future FI products. If we want OEM level functionality, we need engineering on that level to get it.

Kenton,

Sorry for the slight OT, but I believe some might enjoy my ideas. For example, you're build team....
Great ideas Adam and that sounds like the true "ultimate" system in all reality. Forwarded on to the powers that be.
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Old 05-25-2013, 01:03 AM   #29
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Is that on the E98 i sold ya guys?
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Old 05-25-2013, 01:25 AM   #30
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Is that on the E98 i sold ya guys?
Its tastey stuff
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Old 05-25-2013, 02:51 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
Yes, it's done all the time. ATL actually sells a kit to do it, and also offers bladder style cells with the pumps built in.



The ultimate solution I think is to make 2 billet canisters that mimic the OEM fuel tank covers. One canister would hold the pickup pumps that would pull fuel from both sides of the "saddle", the other canister would be the surge tank with output pump(s).

The "kit" would have the 2 canisters, and 2 push-lock fuel lines that would link the canisters which contained all of the plumbing and pumps mentioned above.

I envision a digital (Solid state) fuel pump controller to control all the pumps. One of the main features would be current monitoring of each pickup pump, to tell when current draw dropped below a defined threshold. This would mark the pump "running dry", and it could be cycled intermittently, or shut down with a warning light on a dash mounted status monitor. This also works as an indicator of a pump going bad, where operating current increases, and a warning can be triggered. For the output pump(s), I would run PWM channels with closed loop pressure control. No FPR would be required, just setting the target pressure based on a fuel pressure sensor mounted on or near the fuel rail. I would include an RPM based start-tapper to the pressure "map", so that you could idle large injectors at say 40psi, and ramp up to 70+ psi under load.

I realized these are complicated and expensive ideas to implement, but I believe an evolution in fuelling is required for current and future FI products. If we want OEM level functionality, we need engineering on that level to get it.

Kenton,

Sorry for the slight OT, but I believe some might enjoy my ideas. For example, you're build team....
I like this. It's interesting to know what everyone's ultimate setup is.

I think your only problem with that plan is that you will still have to run a fuel pressure regulator, because I believe there is a minimum power/flow rate that a fuel pump will reliably work at. That minimum level will usually be higher the larger the pump is and also determined partly by design of the pump.

I'd pretty much copy your plan, and then add in some newer BMW design cues. I'd make a in-tank surge tank that could house the main pump, pickup pump, fuel pressure regulator, and fuel filter so everything could be self contained within the tank, and use only a single output hose going to the fuel rail. The return line from the fuel pressure regulator would be used with a jet pump to siphon fuel from the left side of the E46's saddle shaped fuel tank to the pump side with a passive jet pump, reducing pumps and complexity. I'd copy your idea for current monitoring for pump diagnostics and protection, and in lieu of pump pressure being controlled, I'd just run the pump at the minimum power possible for a stable fuel pressure, to keep fuel heating to a minimum, increase pump life, and reduce the load on the rest of the electrical system.

Actually, I think an F30 does and has all of this, minus the surge tank and separate pickup pump.
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Old 05-26-2013, 09:53 AM   #32
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You are killing it with your build "Thunder Buddy"!! I give you props on how you continuously find ways to improve on your build and always share your information with the community. Oh yeah and the dyno numbers aren't bad either
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:56 PM   #33
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The walboro in tank 255's don't last Long on e85. At least that is what the e85 gurus tell me.
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:57 PM   #34
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Everything else looks super solid as a fuel setup!
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Old 05-26-2013, 07:01 PM   #35
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The walboro in tank 255's don't last Long on e85. At least that is what the e85 gurus tell me.
Considering it is running at very low pressure will prolly make it last slot longer

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Old 05-26-2013, 07:04 PM   #36
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The walboro in tank 255's don't last Long on e85. At least that is what the e85 gurus tell me.
Looks like Radium is coming out with some new stuff so I can change my intank to an e85 specific pump...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...count=1&ref=nf
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Old 05-26-2013, 07:05 PM   #37
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Considering it is running at very low pressure will prolly make it last slot longer

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True every bad report of this pump on e85 seemed to be because it was way over clocked, so you are prolly right about it lasting a lot lnger under lower pressure.
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Old 05-26-2013, 07:07 PM   #38
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Looks like Radium is coming out with some new stuff so I can change my intank to an e85 specific pump...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...count=1&ref=nf
Sweet! This should make it bullet proof on a e85 specific pump. I have had really great success on my deatshwerks e85 specific 300lph pump, just an FYI.
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Old 05-26-2013, 07:25 PM   #39
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True every bad report of this pump on e85 seemed to be because it was way over clocked, so you are prolly right about it lasting a lot lnger under lower pressure.
Yeah, I might not be 100 percent of this but when your running a surge tank such as kentons the intank pump that feeds the surge tank is only running around 5psi, as there is nothing stopping fuel from going in and out, nothing to create pressure, so high volumne low pressure
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Old 05-26-2013, 07:28 PM   #40
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Yeah, I might not be 100 percent of this but when your running a surge tank such as kentons the intank pump that feeds the surge tank is only running around 5psi, as there is nothing stopping fuel from going in and out, nothing to create pressure, so high volumne low pressure
It actually puts out about 25psi.
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