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Political Talk
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:29 AM   #61
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Supreme Court Justices Block Law Requiring Voters to Prove Citizenship

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I think a bit abstractly/obliquely it did affirm the concept of protecting (federal) voting rights if even only by invalidating state restrictions upon them.

All too often, basic rights can be pared away by technicalities - a death of a thousand cuts, if you will - which I feel is an underlying purpose undergirding many "voting integrity" laws given the dearth of empirical data that voting fraud is a substantive problem. Strong 2nd Amendment proponents may be sympathetic to that concern.

Given the broad affirmation of this by the SCOTUS, I would say it was a refreshingly apolitical win.
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:54 AM   #62
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Do you truly believe that the standard of proof for voting in this country, knowing damn well how many illegals and legal non-citizens we have, should be "we'll take your word for it"???
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:37 AM   #63
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Do you truly believe that the standard of proof for voting in this country, knowing damn well how many illegals and legal non-citizens we have, should be "we'll take your word for it"???
Yes. Why are you trying to punish law abiding citizens?
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:01 AM   #64
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Supreme Court Justices Block Law Requiring Voters to Prove Citizenship

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Do you truly believe that the standard of proof for voting in this country, knowing damn well how many illegals and legal non-citizens we have, should be "we'll take your word for it"???
Do you really believe that someone should need to prove their validity before executing a right?

Or should the state take their word for it unless there is proof otherwise?


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Old 06-20-2013, 09:52 AM   #65
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Do you really believe that someone should need to prove their validity before executing a right?

Or should the state take their word for it unless there is proof otherwise?


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Do I have to show ID to get a gun? yes. Do liberals have a problem with this? no.
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:21 AM   #66
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Supreme Court Justices Block Law Requiring Voters to Prove Citizenship

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Do I have to show ID to get a gun? yes. Do liberals have a problem with this? no.
Would you be ok having to prove your mentally competent to own a gun before being allowed to buy one?

The state has to prove that you're incapable of ownership before you can be denied ownership. In most places. Some places make you prove it to them, which is ridiculous, IMO.


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Old 06-20-2013, 10:31 AM   #67
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Supreme Court Justices Block Law Requiring Voters to Prove Citizenship

Maybe you'd be OK with having to bring your own background checks, though, and you having to provide the burden of proof that you are legally, morally, and psychologically competent and capable of responsible gun ownership. You should probably bring a copy of your house floor plan with location of your safe to show your gun is safely locked up, too.

The burden of proof is upon the state to provide evidence of lawful exclusion, it should not be incumbent upon the individual to provide evidence supporting their inclusion.


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Old 06-20-2013, 10:37 AM   #68
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Would you be ok having to prove your mentally competent to own a gun before being allowed to buy one?

The state has to prove that you're incapable of ownership before you can be denied ownership. In most places. Some places make you prove it to them, which is ridiculous, IMO.
I'm not ok with it, but I have to jump through hoops to own a gun and no one (on either side of the aisle) seems to care. If I have to do that, then people should have to show they are a citizen to vote. If you want free exercise of rights, fine, but then be consistent across the board.

We have a major illegal immigrant problem in this country that isn't going to cease. No politicians from either side will even agree to secure the border even with amnesty on the table (and an actual LAW already on the books mandating that a fence "SHALL" be constructed - Secure Fence Act of 2006 and subsequent legislation). We also have a money-driven political system (aka do anything to win) and motor voter registration system that allows fairly unfettered registration for anyone (including illegals).

The environment is not capable of handling an honor system for voting at the moment, sad but true. I don't want non-citizens voting, period. Our entire system is ripe with fraud, abuse and corruption. I find your purist view naive in light of reality.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:16 AM   #69
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Supreme Court Justices Block Law Requiring Voters to Prove Citizenship

Since our country is rife with gun violence, you'd be ok with some reasonable restrictions there, too, right? In the name of keeping your argument consistent and keeping our children safe?


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Old 06-20-2013, 11:39 AM   #70
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I'm not ok with it, but I have to jump through hoops to own a gun and no one (on either side of the aisle) seems to care. If I have to do that, then people should have to show they are a citizen to vote. If you want free exercise of rights, fine, but then be consistent across the board.

We have a major illegal immigrant problem in this country that isn't going to cease. No politicians from either side will even agree to secure the border even with amnesty on the table (and an actual LAW already on the books mandating that a fence "SHALL" be constructed - Secure Fence Act of 2006 and subsequent legislation). We also have a money-driven political system (aka do anything to win) and motor voter registration system that allows fairly unfettered registration for anyone (including illegals).

The environment is not capable of handling an honor system for voting at the moment, sad but true. I don't want non-citizens voting, period. Our entire system is ripe with fraud, abuse and corruption. I find your purist view naive in light of reality.
Wow! Talk about a slippery slope. The NSA already monitors out phone calls, they should be able to install cameras in our houses. One wrong is wrong and unacceptable. Two wrongs are still wrong, but acceptable to you.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:47 AM   #71
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Since our country is rife with gun violence, you'd be ok with some reasonable restrictions there, too, right? In the name of keeping your argument consistent and keeping our children safe?


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We're already living with unreasonable restrictions. You should see what I have to go through to get a handgun in NY.

It is not unreasonable to have someone show ID to vote, not even close. Again, it is not a poll tax. (not going to re-type it all)
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:01 PM   #72
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Supreme Court Justices Block Law Requiring Voters to Prove Citizenship

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We're already living with unreasonable restrictions. You should see what I have to go through to get a handgun in NY.

It is not unreasonable to have someone show ID to vote, not even close. Again, it is not a poll tax. (not going to re-type it all)
So as long as there are already unreasonable restrictions in place, a few more are ok?

What free ID are you going to provide everyone?


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Old 06-20-2013, 12:11 PM   #73
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So as long as there are already unreasonable restrictions in place, a few more are ok?

What free ID are you going to provide everyone?


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When liberals start marching and screaming for citizens to have free paperwork, free permits, free fingerprinting, and free background checks for gun purchasing, I'll start screaming for citizens to have free IDs for voting.

Is your problem the ID showing itself, or that people need to spend money to get said ID?
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:19 PM   #74
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Supreme Court Justices Block Law Requiring Voters to Prove Citizenship

If there was a free identification available to everybody that immediately established your identification and status, I'd have less of a problem with it.

Buy nothing's free. It'll be free at the expense of tax dollars.

And there we go with partisan politics again.


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Old 06-20-2013, 12:22 PM   #75
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If there was a free identification available to everybody that immediately established your identification and status, I'd have less of a problem with it.

Buy nothing's free. It'll be free at the expense of tax dollars.

And there we go with partisan politics again.


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Im not partisan on this issue. In my personal opinion...if the government REQUIRES something for a right to be exercised, they need to pay for it (yes, tax dollars.) Require crap for getting a gun? Government pays. Require an ID for voting? Government provides everyone with 1 copy of their passport. Simple. Yes, it costs money, but it is money spent on the people, and in a perfect world, the government can buy people IDs and not spend $50 million dollars on an IRS training session.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:29 PM   #76
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Supreme Court Justices Block Law Requiring Voters to Prove Citizenship

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[b]When liberals [b/]start marching and screaming for citizens to have free paperwork, free permits, free fingerprinting, and free background checks for gun purchasing, I'll start screaming for citizens to have free IDs for voting.
You're not partisan on this issue?

Again, all your fees are state/county/locally mandated. There is no federal fee for a NICS check. You're paying for someone, at most, to input some data and make a phone call.

I'm happy to bear a small fee for my choice to buy a gun, rather than have that burden spread across everybody, of which a majority doesn't buy guns at all.

Gun ownership is a right, but it's also a choice. Voting is a duty incumbent upon all citizens.



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Old 06-20-2013, 12:31 PM   #77
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You're not partisan on this issue?

Again, all your fees are state/county/locally mandated. There is no federal fee for a NICS check. You're paying for someone, at most, to input some data and make a phone call.

I'm happy to bear a small fee for my choice to buy a gun, rather than have that burden spread across everybody, of which a majority doesn't buy guns at all.

Gun ownership is a right, but it's also a choice. Voting is a duty incumbent upon all citizens.



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I don't understand your example. Voting is a choice as well. IDs with the exception of passports are state issues for which the states charge a fee. You may be happy to pay for your NICS check, but I certainly am not.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:39 PM   #78
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I don't understand your example. Voting is a choice as well. IDs with the exception of passports are state issues for which the states charge a fee. You may be happy to pay for your NICS check, but I certainly am not.
That is because you are cheap.

I find it humorous you don't understand his example.

NOVA has presented a straightforward, understandable, and convincing argument. Probably the best one in the thread.

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Old 06-20-2013, 01:10 PM   #79
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That is because you are cheap.

I find it humorous you don't understand his example.

NOVA has presented a straightforward, understandable, and convincing argument. Probably the best one in the thread.
So it's ok for one piece of paper to be charged for, but not another? Nova's example is poor. The NICS check is a federally mandated check thanks to the FEDERALLY imposed Brady act. The states act as the enforcer for the act. Him stating that "the feds don't charge for it" is fallacy, since it is done by the state to satisfy a federal act. If this circumventing of the law is his argument, then there honestly is no point in debating it.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:13 PM   #80
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Supreme Court Justices Block Law Requiring Voters to Prove Citizenship

So you support a tax on everyone to support the choices of a few?


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