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Political Talk
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:59 AM   #21
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I saw this stuff first hand during sandy, for the record. Not the threats, but turning away non union labor and other similar shenanigans
Wow, apparently EVERYONE has experienced this first hand. So many eyewitnesses.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:05 AM   #22
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I'll have to ask my brother if he saw any of this. He was in one of the hardest hit areas and is the #2 guy of a pretty big commercial/residential builder.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:13 AM   #23
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I do like that if it's a trade union (ie, skilled labor) they do provide uniform training and continuing education. They also increase the wages of the surrounding area for non-union workers.
Unless the union has a monopoly in the area and contractors are forbidden from hiring non-union labor.


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Old 06-18-2013, 11:14 AM   #24
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Unless the union has a monopoly in the area and contractors are forbidden from hiring non-union labor.


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True, but they also raise wages for similar types of jobs that may not be of any competition.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:16 AM   #25
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I do like that if it's a trade union (ie, skilled labor) they do provide uniform training and continuing education. They also increase the wages of the surrounding area for non-union workers.
So does non union labor. My wife's firm pays for her continuing educating. They don't increase anything. They eliminate non union jobs by protesting with their labor thugs. They also artificially inflate wages/costs to the point where jobs and contracts are completely eliminated.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:16 AM   #26
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I think a lot of companies pay people out for unused vacation when they separate from the company

I know mine does, as did the last company (both major companies)
Not talking about at separation. Talking about the common practice in local and state government of taking a cash payout in the hundreds of thousands at retirement for supposed unused vacation and sick days.

Teachers are the worst offenders.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:17 AM   #27
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They may do some good, but they do plenty of harm, as well.


In any event, I may not like them but I wouldn't support legislation to ban them from existence.
"I am pro 2nd Amendment, but we need to regulate guns and ban automatic weapons."
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:18 AM   #28
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"I am pro 2nd Amendment, but we need to regulate guns and ban automatic weapons."
Like them or not they are a market solution. Barring them from existence would be anti-free market.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:19 AM   #29
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True, but they also raise wages for similar types of jobs that may not be of any competition.
Again, 100% false information. The union accepts only so many members. Once the pool is filled, everyone else must seek employment elsewhere. The market knows that private non union companies can't pay nearly what the unions pay, and they exploit the workers because they know that you "didn't make it in the union otherwise you'd be working for them, earning 10x the money with 1/2 the work." If anything, union labor drops competitive non-union wage.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:20 AM   #30
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So does non union labor. My wife's firm pays for her continuing educating. They don't increase anything. They eliminate non union jobs by protesting with their labor thugs. They also artificially inflate wages/costs to the point where jobs and contracts are completely eliminated.
You're talking about a big firm with skilled labor. Not the same thing.

I'm talking about Joe Bob the general contractor who schleps his way through random projects with little training in any specific area.

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Not talking about at separation. Talking about the common practice in local and state government of taking a cash payout in the hundreds of thousands at retirement for supposed unused vacation and sick days.

Teachers are the worst offenders.
At retirement would = at separation. My company does exactly this when people leave, retire, get fired, whatever.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:20 AM   #31
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Like them or not they are a market solution. Barring them from existence would be anti-free market.
They are not a market solution. They are racketeering. Union dues are not a free market solution. Not allowing non union competition is not a free market solution. Striking unless you get your way is not a free market solution. You are grasping at straws that are non-existant.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:21 AM   #32
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Again, 100% false information. The union accepts only so many members. Once the pool is filled, everyone else must seek employment elsewhere. The market knows that private non union companies can't pay nearly what the unions pay, and they exploit the workers because they know that you "didn't make it in the union otherwise you'd be working for them, earning 10x the money with 1/2 the work." If anything, union labor drops competitive non-union wage.
Show me that it is 100% false information. I never said it's a 1:1 increase across the market. Do some research with actual numbers and economic theory and you will learn something.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:22 AM   #33
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They are not a market solution. They are racketeering. Union dues are not a free market solution. Not allowing non union competition is not a free market solution. Striking unless you get your way is not a free market solution. You are grasping at straws that are non-existant.
At its most fundamental, a union is nothing more or less than a group of people who have figured out that if they act together to place limits on the supply of their own labor, the businesses that have a demand for that labor will need to pay more. Unions are basically employee-owned businesses that sell labor. Like any good business, they try to both encourage demand and control the supply.

Again, I am not a fan of unions.....they have caused many businesses to go belly up (including the one my parents worked for). However, I do understand them and why they exist. You apparently do not because you're jaded by your emotional distaste for them.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:22 AM   #34
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You're talking about a big firm with skilled labor. Not the same thing.

I'm talking about Joe Bob the general contractor who schleps his way through random projects with little training in any specific area.



At retirement would = at separation. My company does exactly this when people leave, retire, get fired, whatever.
A union laborer still makes close to $35 an hour in NYC, plus pension, vacation, medical, blah blah blah. If they are that valuable, the company will pay for more training, as it will translate to a more skilled worker. The principle of a lawfirm and bricklaying, as far as continuing education goes is exactly the same...invest in your worker.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:23 AM   #35
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At its most fundamental, a union is nothing more or less than a group of people who have figured out that if they act together to place limits on the supply of their own labor, the businesses that have a demand for that labor will need to pay more. Unions are basically employee-owned businesses that sell labor. Like any good business, they try to both encourage demand and control the supply.

Again, I am not a fan of unions.....they have caused many businesses to go belly up (including the one my parents worked for). However, I do understand them and why they exist. You apparently do not because you're jaded by your emotional distaste for them.
I have no problem if a group of employees get together, and try and negotiate things. I do have a problem with those employees getting a rep, paying dues, etc etc etc.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:24 AM   #36
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Not to mention, they completely bankrupt the companies they work for, including public sector things like schools and hospitals.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:56 AM   #37
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Lol unions.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:17 PM   #38
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If we don't have unions, all those protections disappear tomorrow?
There is no denying that many of those protections came about because of unions. Not only do they have the ability to strike and get better working conditions at the employer. They also have the ability to build a political power base to get such legislation passed.

As with all legislation, there will be those who like it and those who don't. It will positively affect some and negatively affect others. Such is the way of the world.

Having dealt with high power. (you put 3.5 megawatts into a 5K sqft room you learn a few things in the real world.) Those downed power lines are a high voltage hazard that can easily kill. Protection from them is the primary concern.

This is not to say that there weren't some abuses during Sandy. Just as there have been during Katrina, North Ridge, Loma Prieta, etc. However, ensuring that whatever crew (union or non-union) actually handled the repair of downed power lines were actually properly trained and qualified to do repair them is part of safety procedures.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:19 PM   #39
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Not to mention, they completely bankrupt the companies they work for, including public sector things like schools and hospitals.
If the companies make unprofitable deals for labor, that is not the fault of the union. That is the companies issue.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:28 PM   #40
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I have no problem if a group of employees get together, and try and negotiate things. I do have a problem with those employees getting a rep, paying dues, etc etc etc.
Management has reps and lawyers.
Do you write the employment contracts labor signs?

Management wants labor at an unfair negotiating position so they can exploit them. They want to use discriminatory hiring practices. (As you yourself have admitted to.) So much for your soapbox of "hiring the best person available based on their abilities".

I hope somebody subpoenas the records of e46fanatics, gets all your contact information, and brings suit against you and the company you work for and they go down the tubes and you and your family "ends up jobless, homeless, and pennyless."
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