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Old 06-18-2013, 01:35 PM   #41
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Management has reps and lawyers.
Do you write the employment contracts labor signs?

Management wants labor at an unfair negotiating position so they can exploit them. They want to use discriminatory hiring practices. (As you yourself have admitted to.) So much for your soapbox of "hiring the best person available based on their abilities".

I hope somebody subpoenas the records of e46fanatics, gets all your contact information, and brings suit against you and the company you work for and they go down the tubes and you and your family "ends up jobless, homeless, and pennyless."
There is no such thing as exploiting employees in the United States. Thats just something liberals made up. If you are being exploited, you are free to leave and find a new job. Last time I checked, slavery was abolished. Oh, and if my company goes down the tubes, guess what? I'll find a new job.
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:38 PM   #42
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There is no such thing as exploiting employees in the United States. Thats just something liberals made up. If you are being exploited, you are free to leave and find a new job. Last time I checked, slavery was abolished. Oh, and if my company goes down the tubes, guess what? I'll find a new job.
So, do you disagree with the variety of workers protection acts? FMLA, OSHA, etc.
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:44 PM   #43
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So, do you disagree with the variety of workers protection acts? FMLA, OSHA, etc.
Yes, completely unnecessary. Having a lot of friends in big construction (Im talking about things like the Freedom Tower, not a block of condos) I get told all the time how all those acts are nothing but a racket. A completely worthless feelgood piece of legislation, much like gun control.



Injuries were naturally going down on their own. Safety and technology improve, and lawsuits keep companies in check otherwise they'll go bust.

I also strongly disagree with the FMLA. If the company/boss is a normal person, they will let you go for those reasons and will let you return after. If not, they should have the right not to, but suffer the blowback of bad press. I love it how people equate taking something from someone and giving it to someone else "fair."


If a business or company doesn't offer something you want, find employment elsewhere. No one is forcing you to work for the greedy, scumbag, selfish corporate thugs.
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:45 PM   #44
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So, how do you explain massive exploitation in the early part of the 20th century? Child labor, working massive amounts of hours for low pay, no workplace safety, etc.?
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:50 PM   #45
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So, how do you explain massive exploitation in the early part of the 20th century? Child labor, working massive amounts of hours for low pay, no workplace safety, etc.?
Child labor is another favorite of mine, no wonder Americans became so lazy. Most immigrant kids work from a really young age, for a wide variety of reasons. Some to learn the value of hard work, some to pitch in, whatever. I realize everyone here (probably without kids BTW) thinks that the government raising your kids is an excellent idea but I personally don't. I'll do with my kids what I please.

Massive amounts of hours for low pay? Again, why don't the people leave? Go work somewhere else. Oh, there is nowhere else? Then if you want food on your table, S.T.F.U and work. Such is life. I did sh!t work for many years. I cleaned bathrooms and handed out paper towels to people. I worked 20 hour days 6 days a week for not much money.

Workplace safety? It's called a courtroom. Does OSHA prevent accidents? Explain the PA building collapse or the NY crane collapse then. OSHA doesn't prevent anything. Companies take safety seriously themselves. No one wants a dead/mamed employee. You think police are what keep neighborhoods nice?
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:53 PM   #46
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I'll do with my kids what I please.
Yes because before birth they deserve protections. After, they are simply your property to do your bidding.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:07 PM   #47
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Child labor is another favorite of mine, no wonder Americans became so lazy. Most immigrant kids work from a really young age, for a wide variety of reasons. Some to learn the value of hard work, some to pitch in, whatever. I realize everyone here (probably without kids BTW) thinks that the government raising your kids is an excellent idea but I personally don't. I'll do with my kids what I please.


I worked from a young age on the Jersey Shore so I know the value of work, and my kids will work....and we're not recent immigrants....gee, imagine that

Even though I thought my reference was abundantly clear, I'll explain further. When I'm talking about child labor, I'm not talking about a 13 year old washing dairy trucks for 20 hours per week during the summer. I'm talking about shoe factories in the early part of the 20th century that worked kids 20 hours per DAY with regular occurrences of lost limbs, deaths, and other various injuries.

I'm not even going to address your ridiculous assertion that immigrant kinds by some miracle know how to work harder than non.

Edit: No need to respond as you clearly aren't open to any sort of balanced conversation.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:10 PM   #48
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I worked from a young age on the Jersey Shore so I know the value of work, and my kids will work....and we're not recent immigrants....gee, imagine that

Even though I thought my reference was abundantly clear, I'll explain further. When I'm talking about child labor, I'm not talking about a 13 year old washing dairy trucks for 20 hours per week during the summer. I'm talking about shoe factories in the early part of the 20th century that worked kids 20 hours per DAY with regular occurrences of lost limbs, deaths, and other various injuries.

I'm not even going to address your ridiculous assertion that immigrant kinds by some miracle know how to work harder than non.

Edit: No need to respond as you clearly aren't open to any sort of balanced conversation.
Did those factories kidnap those kids? What about the 14 year old dropout that hands out with his friends on the corner all day...surely he would benefit from a job at a shoe factory no? Do you believe injuries fell due to the fact that OSHA was passed, or that safety standards generally improved, lawsuits bankrupted those that failed to provide safety, and of course, technology?
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:11 PM   #49
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Does OSHA prevent accidents? Explain the PA building collapse or the NY crane collapse then. OSHA doesn't prevent anything.
Fun fact #1: I actually witnessed this collapse happen while on a St. Patrick's Day bar crawl. Surreal.

Fun fact #2: My office is defense counsel for one of the defendants in the MANY resulting lawsuits. We actually have one attorney who pretty much only does crane cases right now.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:12 PM   #50
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Did those factories kidnap those kids? What about the 14 year old dropout that hands out with his friends on the corner all day...surely he would benefit from a job at a shoe factory no? Do you believe injuries fell due to the fact that OSHA was passed, or that safety standards generally improved, lawsuits bankrupted those that failed to provide safety, and of course, technology?
A combination of all of the above.

What choices do you think someone like that would have? Work and risk life and limb? Or starve? Just because it's a choice does not mean it isn't exploitative.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:15 PM   #51
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A combination of all of the above.

What choices do you think someone like that would have? Work and risk life and limb? Or starve? Just because it's a choice does not mean it isn't exploitative.
Why do you try to paint the picture as so extreme? You make it sound like everyone during the 20th century either lost a limb or starved. Im not a crab fisherman because I understand the risk and choose not to do that as my employment. Im not a logger, a deepsea welder, etc. There have always been "safe" jobs with absolutely no machinery. Accidents happened and will continue to happen. Many were negligence, many were thanks to the times. Tell me, do you think if we abolished OSHA today there would be an increase in workplace injuries?
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:17 PM   #52
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Accidents happen ALL the time, trust me. You can make those machines as safe as you want, pass all the laws you want, and workers will still disassemble safety mechanisms to make their job easier and/or faster....

Then sue everyone when they get hurt. I'm not kidding. Thus is the life of a products liability attorney.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:27 PM   #53
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Accidents happen ALL the time, trust me. You can make those machines as safe as you want, pass all the laws you want, and workers will still disassemble safety mechanisms to make their job easier and/or faster....

Then sue everyone when they get hurt. I'm not kidding. Thus is the life of a products liability attorney.
What does products liability have to do with occupational safety. If an employee removes safeguards, they are liable for their injuries. If the machine isn't properly guarded, the company is. In my experience, removing safety guarding or operating in an unsafe manner (servicing electrical panels without proper gear, for example) is grounds for termination.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:30 PM   #54
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What does products liability have to do with occupational safety. If an employee removes safeguards, they are liable for their injuries. If the machine isn't properly guarded, the company is. In my experience, removing safety guarding or operating in an unsafe manner (servicing electrical panels without proper gear, for example) is grounds for termination.
Plenty of construction workers remove safety devices. They don't wear a harness when required, take off safety guards from their grinders, take off trigger guards from nail guns etc. Many NY companies are now passing the OSHA violation costs to the offending worker. Things like that are extremely difficult to enforce.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:40 PM   #55
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Plenty of construction workers remove safety devices. They don't wear a harness when required, take off safety guards from their grinders, take off trigger guards from nail guns etc. Many NY companies are now passing the OSHA violation costs to the offending worker. Things like that are extremely difficult to enforce.
And in cases where safeguards were circumvented, companies are not liable. What's the problem?
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:45 PM   #56
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And in cases where safeguards were circumvented, companies are not liable. What's the problem?
I doubt that would be the case. If worker A disable the trigger guard on a nailgun, and another worker or bystander was injured by it, the company would still be liable. I have personally seen definite OSHA violations, but the workers don't care because they just want to get something done and go home. Hell, smoking on a site is now a $10,000 violation.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:48 PM   #57
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I doubt that would be the case. If worker A disable the trigger guard on a nailgun, and another worker or bystander was injured by it, the company would still be liable. I have personally seen definite OSHA violations, but the workers don't care because they just want to get something done and go home. Hell, smoking on a site is now a $10,000 violation.
What you doubt is irrelevant. I know a bit about this stuff. Companies and their insurance companies take a very close look at each incident. There are millions at stake. If a worker removes a safeguard, he's in trouble. If a worker doesn't report that a safeguard has been removed, even if he didn't do it himself, he's in trouble. Any decent company will immediately lock out and tag out a machine that is deemed to be unsafe or is suspected of being unsafe until it is verified that it IS safe. Remove a lock without authorization? You're fired. OSHA saves limbs, lives and jobs.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:51 PM   #58
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Sandy Cleanup Union Thuggery

But what if the other worker didn't know the device was tampered with and got injured? The company would still be liable despite the fact an employee did the tampering no? As for OSHA, there is no evidence to prove that OSHA was responsible for the drop in workplace accidents. They have been on the decline at the same exact rate before and after its implementation. What I do know is that OSHA has dramatically increased the cost of construction.


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Old 06-18-2013, 02:55 PM   #59
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It's Official: Random Inspections Improve Workplace Safety


Do government regulations in the workplace protect employees and consumers, or does the high cost of compliance merely drive companies to layoffs and bankruptcy? Proponents of each argument make their cases based on passion and little else since the available studies on the issue have been biased in one way or another. Now, a new study designed to produce more objective results has shown that random safety inspections do indeed improve safety without leading to burdensome expense or job loss. Some scientists say the randomized, controlled study design could be a model for testing whether proposed future regulations are likely to be effective.

Most workplace inspections are done by the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration, a federal agency tasked with setting and enforcing safety standards, or by state agencies approved by OSHA. But the efficacy of these inspections is difficult to study in an unbiased way, says Michael Toffel, an environmental management expert at Harvard Business School. Most safety regulators don't inspect companies at random and instead typically focus on those that have accidents or where workers have filed complaints. Afterward, injury rates tend to revert back to whatever they were before the incident occurred, even without an OSHA inspection. So researchers could infer that the inspection played a bigger role in the reduction of injuries than it actually did.

On the other hand, says Toffel, if OSHA finds incomplete documentation during an inspection, it will require the company to keep better records—which, in turn, may lead to more injuries being reported. In the late 1980s, for example, after OSHA imposed multimillion-dollar fines on a few large manufacturing plants for poor recordkeeping, reports of injuries in similar plants more than doubled. A study of these sites would make it look as if the inspection led to an uptick in injuries.

Toffel was able to get a more objective picture thanks to California's Division of Occupational Safety and Health, which carries out some of their inspections on workplaces selected at random. With economists David Levine of the University of California, Berkeley, and Matthew Johnson of Boston University, Toffel looked for workplaces that had been inspected between 1996 and 2006 for which they could find similar companies that were eligible for inspection but hadn't yet been selected. They ended up with 409 matched pairs of inspected and uninspected workplaces. The researchers used workers' compensation claims over the period ranging from 4 years before through 4 years after the inspection to determine illness and injury rates. They also examined injuries during the same block of time for the companies that weren't inspected. Companies included in the study produced "fabricated metal" (doors, car parts, aerospace products), wood, or food products.

Comparing the workplaces randomly chosen for inspection with matched "controls, which is comparable to using a placebo group in a trial of a new drug or vaccine, had never been done before, says Toffel.
Companies undergoing random inspections saw workplace injuries decline by about 9% in the 4 years following the date of inspection compared with injury reports during the same time period in firms that were not inspected, the researchers report online today in Science. The cost of the injuries reported—including medical treatment and missed work—fell by 26%. Using information from financial data provider Standard & Poor's, the investigators found that the inspections had no effect on employment, total earnings, sales, or the survival of the company.

"Our study suggests that randomized inspections work as they're meant to, improving safety while not undermining the company's ability to do business," says Toffel. "Now we'd like to get more data to see exactly how inspections reduce injuries, and to investigate what kinds of companies would get the most or least benefit from safety regulation."

"The work is unusual in the strength of the study design," says Jon Baron, president of the Washington, D.C.-based Coalition for Evidence-Based Policy, a nonprofit, nonpartisan group that seeks to increase government's effectiveness based on rigorous evidence about what works. Baron notes that safety regulations are often put in place without scientifically credible evidence of their likely effects. Ideally, he says, all new government regulation should be subjected to similar randomized studies before being widely implemented.

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceno...pections-.html
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:57 PM   #60
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But what if the other worker didn't know the device was tampered with and got injured? The company would still be liable despite the fact an employee did the tampering no? As for OSHA, there is no evidence to prove that OSHA was responsible for the drop in workplace accidents. They have been on the decline at the same exact rate before and after its implementation. What I do know is that OSHA has dramatically increased the cost of construction.


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What restaurant do you work at? I want to be sure to avoid it as I am sure sanitation and standards governing food safety are inconvenient as well.
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