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Old 06-19-2013, 04:09 PM   #1
bimmerfan08
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TWA Flight 800 crash not due to gas tank explosion, former investigators say

The producers of an upcoming documentary on TWA Flight 800—which exploded and crashed into the waters off Long Island, N.Y., on July 17, 1996, killing all 230 people on board—claim to have proof that a missile caused the Paris-bound flight to crash. And six former investigators who took part in the film say there was a cover-up and want the case reopened.

"There was a lack of coordination and willful denial of information," Hank Hughes, a senior accident investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board, said on Wednesday during a conference call with reporters. "There were 755 witnesses. At no time was information provided by the witnesses shared by the FBI."

Jim Speer, an accident investigator at the time of the crash for the Airline Pilots Association, who sifted through the recovered wreckage in a hangar, said he discovered holes consistent with those that would be formed by a high-energy blast in the right wing. He requested it be tested for explosives. When the test came back positive, he said, he was "physically removed" from a room by two CIA agents.

The investigators would not speculate on the reasons for the alleged coverup or who would have fired the missile that they believe took down the plane.

After a four-year investigation, the NTSB concluded the plane was destroyed by a center fuel tank explosion likely caused by a spark from faulty wiring. But according to Tom Stalcup, a co-producer of the documentary, the film presents new "radar and forensic evidence proving that one or more ordnance explosions outside the aircraft caused the crash." The film will premiere on EPIX on July 17, the 17th anniversary of the disaster.

"These investigators were not allowed to speak to the public or refute any comments made by their superiors and/or NTSB and FBI officials about their work at the time of the official investigation," a news release announcing the documentary said. "They waited until after retirement to reveal how the official conclusion by the (NTSB) was falsified and lay out their case."

The investigators filed a petition with the NTSB on Wednesday calling for a new probe. The NTSB had said it would review any petition related to the 1996 crash, which touched off one of the most complex air disaster investigations in U.S. history.

The CIA and FBI conducted a parallel investigation to determine if a bomb or missile had brought down the plane.

Dozens of eyewitnesses in the Long Island area "recalled seeing something resembling a flare or firework ascend and culminate in an explosion," the CIA said in a 2008 report. "Had the crash been the result of state-sponsored terrorism, it would have been considered an act of war." Also from the report:

The CIA responded to the FBI’s request within 24 hours of the crash. This support consisted primarily of help from the Counterterrorist Center in the Directorate of Operations and from a small group of analysts in the Office of Weapons, Technology and Proliferation in the Directorate of Intelligence.

But after an eight-month investigation, the CIA "concluded with confidence and full substantiation that the eyewitnesses had not seen a missile."

The CIA's deputy director of intelligence wrote in a 1997 memo,"Our analysis demonstrates that the eyewitness sightings of greatest concern to us—the ones originally interpreted to be of a possible missile attack—took place after the first of several explosions aboard the aircraft."

"We went back and interviewed these people and found them to be quite credible," Hughes said on Wednesday.

He added: "We have no hidden agenda here—we just want the truth."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...141624708.html
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:28 PM   #2
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Silly. I did an 8-week leadership training stint with the NTSB and can personally attest that they are a bunch of arrow-straight, by the book, stand-up folks who are scrupulous in what they do, knowing full well that everything they do will be scrutinized under an electron microscope. I had a chance to examine the Flight 800 wreckage at their training facility (kind of eerie walking down the aisles where so many died) and yes, it was very apparant how that center fuel tank exploded outwards.

Is it "possible" that Flight 800 was shot down? Only if nothing's truly impossible. Is it plausible that Flight 800 was shot down? Not really. Is it probably that it was shot down? Not even close.

I think some folks are just predisposed to see conspiracies everywhere and will weave one wherever they can.
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:51 PM   #3
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Silly. I did an 8-week leadership training stint with the NTSB and can personally attest that they are a bunch of arrow-straight, by the book, stand-up folks who are scrupulous in what they do, knowing full well that everything they do will be scrutinized under an electron microscope. I had a chance to examine the Flight 800 wreckage at their training facility (kind of eerie walking down the aisles where so many died) and yes, it was very apparant how that center fuel tank exploded outwards.

Is it "possible" that Flight 800 was shot down? Only if nothing's truly impossible. Is it plausible that Flight 800 was shot down? Not really. Is it probably that it was shot down? Not even close.

I think some folks are just predisposed to see conspiracies everywhere and will weave one wherever they can.
Normally I laugh at the conspiracy of things. But I was an adult when TWA 800 went down. And even in those times of "non-internet, instant information overload", there were eye-witnesses on the same-day claiming they saw something come from the ground to the flight when it went down. Since it happened, I always wondered why, within hours, numerous reports of the same ground-to-plane objects were reported by eye-witnesses who didn't know eachother.

Of course, your NTSB leadership training trumps my knowledge. But the 6 former investigators knowledge (IMO) far outweighs your leadership training crap. I will give these guys an honest listen and determine if any of their information holds water.

I certainly don't dismiss it as tin-foil hat conspiracies. I lived through it, and things didn't add-up at the time either.
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Old 06-20-2013, 06:16 PM   #4
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Silly. I did an 8-week leadership training stint with the NTSB and can personally attest that they are a bunch of arrow-straight, by the book, stand-up folks who are scrupulous in what they do, knowing full well that everything they do will be scrutinized under an electron microscope. I had a chance to examine the Flight 800 wreckage at their training facility (kind of eerie walking down the aisles where so many died) and yes, it was very apparant how that center fuel tank exploded outwards.

Is it "possible" that Flight 800 was shot down? Only if nothing's truly impossible. Is it plausible that Flight 800 was shot down? Not really. Is it probably that it was shot down? Not even close.

I think some folks are just predisposed to see conspiracies everywhere and will weave one wherever they can.
Do you think your affiliation might lead to bias and thus covering of unethical investigations?
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Old 06-20-2013, 06:20 PM   #5
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Silly. I did an 8-week leadership training stint with the NTSB and can personally attest that they are a bunch of arrow-straight, by the book, stand-up folks who are scrupulous in what they do, knowing full well that everything they do will be scrutinized under an electron microscope. I had a chance to examine the Flight 800 wreckage at their training facility (kind of eerie walking down the aisles where so many died) and yes, it was very apparant how that center fuel tank exploded outwards.

Is it "possible" that Flight 800 was shot down? Only if nothing's truly impossible. Is it plausible that Flight 800 was shot down? Not really. Is it probably that it was shot down? Not even close.

I think some folks are just predisposed to see conspiracies everywhere and will weave one wherever they can.

I was at the NTSB facility as well and got to see the wreckage. We did a whole case study on the TWA subject as part of analytical techniques course and using Analysis of Competing Hypothesis (ACH).

I'm surprised at this revelation and curious as to what the former NTSB employees have to say.
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Old 06-20-2013, 06:40 PM   #6
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Normally I laugh at the conspiracy of things. But I was an adult when TWA 800 went down. And even in those times of "non-internet, instant information overload", there were eye-witnesses on the same-day claiming they saw something come from the ground to the flight when it went down. Since it happened, I always wondered why, within hours, numerous reports of the same ground-to-plane objects were reported by eye-witnesses who didn't know eachother.
That phenomena, of eye witnesses seeing something from the ground has supposedly been explained...well previously until this revelation.

you can read about explaining the missile theory in my attached PDF written by Mr. Randolph M. Tauss whom I dont think is/was affiliated with the NTSB. I forget.

Quote:
What they were seeing was a
trail of burning fuel coming from
the aircraft. Nonetheless, some
eyewitnesses interpreted the
"streak" produced by the burning
fuel as a possible missile.
This interpretation no doubt was
reinforced in their minds when
the streak suddenly culminated
in an explosion.
Quote:
Other descriptions from eyewitnesses
who for whatever reason
did not report hearing sounds
supported this conclusion. For
example, a passenger on USAir
Flight 217 reported seeing an
aircraft fly under him 10 seconds
before the appearance of "a
small, flare-like projectile traveling
in an east-northeasterly
direction." Radar tracking of
Flight 217 and the small aircraft-
later confirmed to be a
Navy P-3 Orion-shows that he
first saw the flare-like object at
about the time Flight 800's CVR
detected an onboard explosion.
He also specified where the
flare-like object first appeared,
which coincided with Flight
800's location when it exploded.
And his statement that the
flare-like object was traveling in
an east-northeasterly direction
agrees with the direction that
Flight 800 is known to have
been traveling when it exploded.
So the flare-like object he saw
almost certainly was Flight 800
just after it exploded, not a
missile.
Quote:
Another factor corroborating this
theory was that eyewitnesses
who suspected that they had
watched a missile destroy an aircraft
were puzzled that they had
not actually seen the aircraft
before the missile hit it. Considering
the lighting conditions at
the time-just at sunset-the airliner
should have been visible to
any observer witnessing a missile
approach it. But if burning
fuel from the crippled aircraft
was what they were seeing-
rather than a missile streak-
there would be no separate aircraft
to see.

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Old 06-20-2013, 08:22 PM   #7
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That phenomena, of eye witnesses seeing something from the ground has supposedly been explained...well previously until this revelation.

you can read about explaining the missile theory in my attached PDF written by Mr. Randolph M. Tauss whom I dont think is/was affiliated with the NTSB. I forget.
I heard the explaination back then. I haven't thought about it much since 1996.

I am not ready to throw in the 9/11 conspiracy hat. But I will certainly give these 6 investigators an honest listen before I dismiss it and call it complete garbage.
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:29 PM   #8
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I heard the explaination back then. I haven't thought about it much since 1996.

I am not ready to throw in the 9/11 conspiracy hat. But I will certainly give these 6 investigators an honest listen before I dismiss it and call it complete garbage.
I agree, I too am curious what they have to say. Are you watching the documentary that is supposedly coming out mid-July?
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:11 PM   #9
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I remember when this happened and a ton of local witnesses said it looked like a projectile explosion.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:18 PM   #10
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Smells like swiftboating.

What's the objective?
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:38 PM   #11
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Smells like swiftboating.

What's the objective?
Trying to protect the civil rights of the all the dead and ensure that the investigation is accurate. Unlike the treatment the deceased are receiving from Benghazi and 9-11.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:55 PM   #12
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Trying to protect the civil rights of the all the dead and ensure that the investigation is accurate.

Where are the rest of the investigators that were involved?
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Old 06-21-2013, 05:33 AM   #13
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TWA Flight 800 crash not due to gas tank explosion, former investigators say

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Originally Posted by Lair View Post
Where are the rest of the investigators that were involved?
Maybe still employed and therefore can't talk?

or maybe they disagree with those blowing the whistle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lair View Post
Smells like swiftboating.

Yes..because somehow Obama was involved back in the 90s

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Originally Posted by Lair View Post

What's the objective?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond42262 View Post
Trying to protect the civil rights of the all the dead and ensure that the investigation is accurate. .



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Old 06-21-2013, 12:08 PM   #14
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Do you think your affiliation might lead to bias and thus covering of unethical investigations?
No.

Rather it was seeing a bunch of sober minded, scrupulous, by-the-book engineers and the actual remains of the jet instead of subscribing to yet another hair-brained speculative conspiracy theory.

I'll give this latest theory due hearing, if with great skepticism, just in case they actually do come up with some hard facts rather than some vague, tenditious speculations straining any limits of rational plausibility. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one: a frayed wire sparking in a hot empty gas tank filled with fumes.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:14 PM   #15
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Silly. I did an 8-week leadership training stint with the NTSB and can personally attest that they are a bunch of arrow-straight, by the book, stand-up folks who are scrupulous in what they do, knowing full well that everything they do will be scrutinized under an electron microscope. I had a chance to examine the Flight 800 wreckage at their training facility (kind of eerie walking down the aisles where so many died) and yes, it was very apparant how that center fuel tank exploded outwards.

Is it "possible" that Flight 800 was shot down? Only if nothing's truly impossible. Is it plausible that Flight 800 was shot down? Not really. Is it probably that it was shot down? Not even close.

I think some folks are just predisposed to see conspiracies everywhere and will weave one wherever they can.
I know nothing about this other than "a plane crashed" so this isn't a loaded question just honest curiosity...if the "missle" or rpg or whatever hit the fuel tank and it exploded, wouldn't the damage look like "the fuel tank exploded?"
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Old 06-21-2013, 01:04 PM   #16
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I know nothing about this other than "a plane crashed" so this isn't a loaded question just honest curiosity...if the "missle" or rpg or whatever hit the fuel tank and it exploded, wouldn't the damage look like "the fuel tank exploded?"
He's probably referring to the difference between the fuel tank exploding outwards (aka, ignition point originating from inside) and the fuel tank being impacted from the outside, in and then exploding outwards.
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Old 06-21-2013, 01:12 PM   #17
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He's probably referring to the difference between the fuel tank exploding outwards (aka, ignition point originating from inside) and the fuel tank being impacted from the outside, in and then exploding outwards.
Im no forensic expert or anything, but it seems like it would be awfully difficult to be that precise from a blown up wreck torched by jet fuel and then scattered across the atlantic. Seems like a lot of pieces would be missing from the puzzle no? I am not going to say that it was shot down, but it seems a bit far fetched for them to be able to pinpoint the cause with such accuracy. I'm far from an expert in the field, so I'll leave it to those of you who are to chime in and explain. There is probably a ton of stuff I don't know about that is causing some confusion me thinks.
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Old 06-21-2013, 02:38 PM   #18
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You guys forgot the variables of


Implosions...
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Old 06-21-2013, 03:47 PM   #19
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Im no forensic expert or anything, but it seems like it would be awfully difficult to be that precise from a blown up wreck torched by jet fuel and then scattered across the atlantic. Seems like a lot of pieces would be missing from the puzzle no? I am not going to say that it was shot down, but it seems a bit far fetched for them to be able to pinpoint the cause with such accuracy. I'm far from an expert in the field, so I'll leave it to those of you who are to chime in and explain. There is probably a ton of stuff I don't know about that is causing some confusion me thinks.
They actually recovered quite a bit of the plane and, put on your CSI hats, you can tell a surprising amount about what happened by how the materials failed. A missile explosion, even outside of the plane, would leave very telltale high-velocity shrapnel damage penetrating into the fuel tank, sort of like a lot of high velocity bullets of various sizes (there was no evidence of this).

There was ample evidence of a large, low-velocity fuel vapor explosion, or conflagration to be more precise, which essentially shoved apart the fuel tank rather than shattering it as would a bomb. You could see the various scrape and other marks where internal bracing and whatnot were pushed into the tank wall and then all that being pushed into the planes superstructure proper. You could also tell, based on what was pushed into what from what direction and tracing backwards, the general area where that force was coming from and hence, where the blast originated, which was around some wiring that had/has shown evidence of the insulation wearing off in other 747s and becoming susceptible to arcing.

Couple that with a lack of neutralizing gas (nitrogen, argon or CO2) for empty, vapor-laden tanks the size of a small room plus ill-placed AC equipment right by/under said tank to keep the fuel warm (warm fuel burns more efficiently apparently) and this was really a disaster waiting to happen. The biggest surprise is that it hadn't happened before or more often.

An internal bomb, too, would have left very different effects, more of a shattering effect and high-velocity particle/shrapnel pitting, typical of a high-explosive detonation, on the inside of the tank/plane -- all very easy to tell when you know what to look for.

All the various other initially contradictory (to a fuel tank explosion) reports have been dealt with quite thoroughly over the years by many parties, not just the NTSB, which I will leave to the dear reader to research in more detail.

Of course, these folks MAY have some radically different new evidence that somehow these hundreds of trained investigators have missed or badly misinterpreted, but I remain highly skeptical of such an unlikely scenario.

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Old 06-24-2013, 08:02 AM   #20
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No. Tin foil hatism is costing tax dollars here.
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