E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Political Talk

Political Talk
You may discuss anything regarding politics in this forum ONLY. If you cannot respect others opinions, your access to this forum will be removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-01-2013, 04:00 PM   #41
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 99
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond42262 View Post
If the authors of the study don't like the cost of child birth in America, perhaps they can do it like women in sub Saharan Africa and just squat down and give birth in the dirt. Let's see how much they complain then.
Now there's a solution to our high health care costs in this country, let's emulate sub Saharan Africa. Rather, why don't we emulate, say, Sweeden and both raise our health care quality while reducing GDP costs by about half.
Rhumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:01 PM   #42
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
True of course, trying to compare overall national health care systems.

Also true, if you are the rare individual who has the great means to access the gold-standard care that is available here in the U.S., a level of care that is unaffordable and thus inaccessible to most Americans.

Most Americans have to settle for overly expensive yet lower-quality care than is enjoyed by most/all other industrialized nations. Don't forget though, that high cost of medical care here, roughly twice the GNP expenditures of, say, Germany or Sweeden, do effect ALL Americans quite negatively.

Make sure we're comparing apples to apples here in regarding to talking about a narrow sliver of top-quality care vs. the overall care most in this country actually do experience.

Or, far more likely, they can't afford American health care and drugs.

They are rich enough to afford that top-tier level care that is available here to those very few rich enough to afford it.
That was my only point. That the QUALITY is still the best in the US. The system is not. Having a good insurance policy is enough to have access to excellent care. That is not something reserved for the Romney's. A $400 a month policy will give you the best care you can want. Sure it isn't cheap, but it is certainly something many can afford. It is impossible to have a system (in any field) where everyone gets the best. Anyone who thinks it is possible is an idiot. Top doctors will always be in demand, and in demand means exclusivity. No amount of legistlation will ever get a poor person to see the best doctor.
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:02 PM   #43
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
Now there's a solution to our high health care costs in this country, let's emulate sub Saharan Africa. Rather, why don't we emulate, say, Sweeden and both raise our health care quality while reducing GDP costs by about half.
Sure, kick out all the illegals, and kill everyone earning less than the poverty line. For the sake of entertainment, I would love to hear your thoughts...again...YOUR thoughts on how to fix the healthcare system in the US. That goes for anyone else who is disagreeing....post your thoughts on how we can fix it, and be specific.
__________________

Last edited by NFRs2000nyc; 07-01-2013 at 04:03 PM.
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:02 PM   #44
casino is no lie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CDT
Posts: 76
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
Sure, if you ignore the countless doctrors that spoke out about the issue, a bunch that started their own cash only private clinics, the increasing shortage, and the lower American doctor pool, then yes, it's anyone's guess.
In the past 25 years the number of physicians per 10,000 people in the United States has doubled. People continue to go to medical school and become doctors. Office still offer services while accepting major insurance carriers. Speaking out is not the same as taking action. Many offices already bill people at a lower rate who do not have insurance but still accept insurance as a method of payment.


But hey... this is America. We have the best health care system in the world, assuming you can afford it, which is fewer and fewer with each passing year.
__________________
casino is no lie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:03 PM   #45
evolved
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Saint Louis, MO
Posts: 816
My Ride: 2011 BMW 135i
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
Please let me know which country you speak of (that has better than US common folk medical care) has 300+ million people and 20 million+ illegal immigrants using their medical systems....go ahead, ill wait.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
I think there is a pretty good consensus that there is a little less than 1/2 that amount of illegal immigrants here. I think it's around 11mm, or some such.....not 20mm.
__________________

Present
2011 BMW 135i - BSM
Past
2006 Mazdaspeed 6 GT, 2000 BMW 323ci, 2003 Evolution VIII, 1995 Nissan 240sx w/ SR20DET

E46Sig
evolved is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:08 PM   #46
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 99
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
Generally something that requires a serious cost is a serious surgery. You people have it in your head that medicine should be free. A heart surgery is very expensive, and 8K to save your life seems like a reasonable amount. Hospitals also work out payment plans and even lower costs for patients that truly can't afford to pay. However, you and your liberal buddies always bullsh!t your way through the medical argument.....the people that are REALLY poor, people that cant afford medicine ALREADY GET GOVERNMENT TO PAY FOR IT. The people we are talking about are the uninsured that have iphones and eat out 3 nights a week.
No, just that it should be far more efficiently and cost-effectively delivered, as all other modern industrialized countries have managed -- two measures that our country is failing at. These strike me as two very rational, even business-like measures and goals and ones that are quite achievable given the experience of so many other countries.

Yes, the very poor can get, sometimes, the healthcare they need, but at a far higher cost to everyone and at a much lower quality of care. I'm talking about the poor eating cat food out of cans every night and using their buddy's 5-year old flip phone.
Rhumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:13 PM   #47
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 99
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
Sure, kick out all the illegals, and kill everyone earning less than the poverty line. For the sake of entertainment, I would love to hear your thoughts...again...YOUR thoughts on how to fix the healthcare system in the US. That goes for anyone else who is disagreeing....post your thoughts on how we can fix it, and be specific.
Take one of the top performing health care systems, Sweeden's or Germany's perhaps, then benchmark and/or essentially copy it (why reinvent a perfectly round wheel). Problem solved.

Seems like a very business-like approach: study your competition, study how the top performers are doing it, benchmark and model your business model after it. Raise quality, reduce costs and improve customer satisfaction.

Last edited by Rhumb; 07-01-2013 at 04:13 PM.
Rhumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:15 PM   #48
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 99
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by evolved View Post
I think there is a pretty good consensus that there is a little less than 1/2 that amount of illegal immigrants here. I think it's around 11mm, or some such.....not 20mm.
Or simply make them citizens. Most are young, healthy and industrious. Let's get them in as fully-vested and contributing citizens paying into our system. Being young and relatively healthy, that would be a boon.
Rhumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:18 PM   #49
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,288
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
American Way of Birth, Costliest in the World

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
Yes, the very poor can get, sometimes, the healthcare they need, but at a far higher cost to everyone and at a much lower quality of care. I'm talking about the poor eating cat food out of cans every night and using their buddy's 5-year old flip phone.
That's an exceptionally unhealthy diet for a person, that will lead to numerous expensive medical problems, that would be solved not through millions of dollars of medicine, but by simply eating people food instead of cat food.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:19 PM   #50
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,288
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
American Way of Birth, Costliest in the World

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
Or simply make them citizens. Most are young, healthy and industrious. Let's get them in as fully-vested and contributing citizens paying into our system. Being young and relatively healthy, that would be a boon.
Amnesty for all! As long as you have one foot in the United States, you're a citizen!

Step one, fill out this 1040 for me.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:19 PM   #51
casino is no lie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CDT
Posts: 76
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
That's an exceptionally unhealthy diet for a person, that will lead to numerous expensive medical problems, that would be solved not through millions of dollars of medicine, but by simply eating people food instead of cat food.
That's an interesting proposal, but a modest one at that. I'm all for it.
__________________
casino is no lie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:20 PM   #52
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,288
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
American Way of Birth, Costliest in the World

Quote:
Originally Posted by casino is no lie View Post
That's an interesting proposal, but a modest one at that. I'm all for it.
Lol. Baby back ribs?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:21 PM   #53
yousharenow
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: ATL
Posts: 213
My Ride: E46 ZHP
Send a message via AIM to yousharenow
9k to have a god damn kid?

Why? Ill just not pay like the droves of women that have litters of kids.

Or move to CanadA
yousharenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:22 PM   #54
casino is no lie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CDT
Posts: 76
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousharenow View Post
9k to have a god damn kid?

Why? Ill just not pay like the droves of women that have litters of kids.

Or move to CanadA
Please move to Canada.
__________________
casino is no lie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:23 PM   #55
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 99
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
That was my only point. That the QUALITY is still the best in the US. The system is not. Having a good insurance policy is enough to have access to excellent care. That is not something reserved for the Romney's. A $400 a month policy will give you the best care you can want. Sure it isn't cheap, but it is certainly something many can afford. It is impossible to have a system (in any field) where everyone gets the best. Anyone who thinks it is possible is an idiot. Top doctors will always be in demand, and in demand means exclusivity. No amount of legistlation will ever get a poor person to see the best doctor.
Quote:
That the QUALITY is still the best in the US.
The quality at a very narrow and rarefied level is some of the best in the world, if at a very, very high price, which makes that level of care essentially irrelevant to most Americans who suffer a much lower and still very expensive level of care.

Again though, I'm not talking about some top tier sliver available to the top 10% but rather, our overall system that 90% of us experience. Not only is it expensive, often well above the $400/month price you mention (co-pays, deductibles, medicine, out-of-plan costs and a million other costly loopholes), but is for many and sundry reasons unavailable and/or unaffordable to tens of millions (and no, I'm not just talking about the indolent and slothful).

No amount of legislation will or should get a poor person to see the best doctor but I'm sure they'd more than settle for seeing any decent doctor, so perhaps that's what our country should strive for.
Rhumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:26 PM   #56
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 99
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
That's an exceptionally unhealthy diet for a person, that will lead to numerous expensive medical problems, that would be solved not through millions of dollars of medicine, but by simply eating people food instead of cat food.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Yes it is and yes it will. Eating proper food would save us all a lot of money in the long run, hence food stamps for those unable to afford food at all, or relegated to cat food.

Or, summoning my best Marie Antoinette voice, "Let them eat cake!"

Last edited by Rhumb; 07-01-2013 at 04:27 PM.
Rhumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:49 PM   #57
Xcelratr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal - 310
Posts: 958
My Ride: 04 330Ci ZHP
As with most articles that discuss health care "costs", this one doesn't substantiate any of their figures and discuss the reality behind the numbers. See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
Pay cash and bill is basically reduced 50%, at least in my experience
That may in part be because the hospital/dr knows that an insurance company will pay them about half of what they they bill anyway. By the time the insurance company denies (after the fact) certain tests and/or procedures and adjusts their pay-for amount on each billed item to what they ARE willing to pay for, it often works out that the check they mail is about 50% of the billed amount. So, in addition to the normal desire for immediate payment in any cash-flow business, there may also be a simple degree of fairness coming into play because the hosp/dr doesn't want to penalize the cash customer by making them pay more than they'll collect from the insured customer for the same services.

For anyone in any "normal" business, it's insane. Can you imagine getting your check at a restaurant, crossing off the appetizers you ate and a few of the drinks, and then paying them $8 for the $14 entree, $3 for the $5 dessert? If everyone started doing that, what would happen to menu prices? They'd skyrocket and suddenly we'd all be screaming about how expensive restaurants had become. But in reality, they'd only be expensive on the check, what we're actually paying would probably end up being pretty much the same.

So anytime I read an article about healthcare costs, if that basic issue isn't addressed when they present their data, the entire article is suspect.

For example:

Quote:
From 2004 to 2010, the prices that insurers paid for childbirth - one of the most universal medical encounters - rose 49 percent for vaginal births and 41 percent for Caesarean sections in the United States, with average out-of-pocket costs rising fourfold, according to a recent report by Truven that was commissioned by three health care groups. The average total price charged for pregnancy and newborn care was about $30,000 for a vaginal delivery and $50,000 for a C-section, with commercial insurers paying out an average of $18,329 and $27,866, the report found.

Women with insurance pay out of pocket an average of $3,400, according to a survey by Childbirth Connection, one of the groups behind the maternity costs report. Two decades ago, women typically paid nothing other than a small fee if they opted for a private hospital room or television.
Now, I'm not that good at math, but if the "price charged" is $30,000, and commercial insurers pay out $18,329, and the average insured woman pays $3,400, that leaves $8,271 (28%) of the "price charged" unaccounted for. Who's paying that? Is it not being paid? If it's not paid, how can it be counted as an expense?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
True of course, trying to compare overall national health care systems.

Also true, if you are the rare individual who has the great means to access the gold-standard care that is available here in the U.S., a level of care that is unaffordable and thus inaccessible to most Americans.

Most Americans have to settle for overly expensive yet lower-quality care than is enjoyed by most/all other industrialized nations. Don't forget though, that high cost of medical care here, roughly twice the GNP expenditures of, say, Germany or Sweeden, do effect ALL Americans quite negatively.

Make sure we're comparing apples to apples here in regarding to talking about a narrow sliver of top-quality care vs. the overall care most in this country actually do experience.

Or, far more likely, they can't afford American health care and drugs.

They are rich enough to afford that top-tier level care that is available here to those very few rich enough to afford it.
#1 - The median American, working a blue- or white-collar, medium income job, with average employer-supplied healthcare is neither a person of "great means", nor a person that's denied access to top tier medical care. The whole narrative of "the 1%ers are the only ones with access to great health care while 99% founder in backwater clinics and die in shelters" is just as inaccurate as the narrative of "'Murica is the greatest at everything yo".

#2 - If it's true that Americans are fatter, less exercise-inclined, eat a worse diet, have more unprotected sex, use more drugs, do less preventative care, shoot each other more frequently, work longer hours with fewer vacations than other countries like Germany or Sweden, then making health care cost comparisons is sketchy at best. Of COURSE a basically unhealthier population is going to have higher costs than a basically healthier population.

I'm TOTALLY on board with the need for improvements and possibly fundamental changes to the way the health care system in the US works. Frankly, changes MUST be made, we can't continue along the current path without making some adjustments. And I'm totally ok with cherry picking good ideas from other countries. But this is a deep and complicated subject with about a zillion variables. Drawing a "we gotta do" conclusion based on short mainstream media articles isn't going to get us there.
__________________
----------------------------------------------
Stuff for sale in SoCal:

- Bestop briefcase

----------------------------------------------
Xcelratr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:49 PM   #58
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
American Way of Birth, Costliest in the World

Ok so it seems none of you understand the industry well enough to actually provide specifics that require fixing? Saying "copy Germany" is as useful as a c0ck flavored lollipop. Germany has mostly white, working people, far fewer, far better work ethic, etc. the US is unique and requires our own system. If you don't know how to fix it, say so.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:51 PM   #59
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
American Way of Birth, Costliest in the World

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
As with most articles that discuss health care "costs", this one doesn't substantiate any of their figures and discuss the reality behind the numbers. See below.



That may in part be because the hospital/dr knows that an insurance company will pay them about half of what they they bill anyway. By the time the insurance company denies (after the fact) certain tests and/or procedures and adjusts their pay-for amount on each billed item to what they ARE willing to pay for, it often works out that the check they mail is about 50% of the billed amount. So, in addition to the normal desire for immediate payment in any cash-flow business, there may also be a simple degree of fairness coming into play because the hosp/dr doesn't want to penalize the cash customer by making them pay more than they'll collect from the insured customer for the same services.

For anyone in any "normal" business, it's insane. Can you imagine getting your check at a restaurant, crossing off the appetizers you ate and a few of the drinks, and then paying them $8 for the $14 entree, $3 for the $5 dessert? If everyone started doing that, what would happen to menu prices? They'd skyrocket and suddenly we'd all be screaming about how expensive restaurants had become. But in reality, they'd only be expensive on the check, what we're actually paying would probably end up being pretty much the same.

So anytime I read an article about healthcare costs, if that basic issue isn't addressed when they present their data, the entire article is suspect.

For example:



Now, I'm not that good at math, but if the "price charged" is $30,000, and commercial insurers pay out $18,329, and the average insured woman pays $3,400, that leaves $8,271 (28%) of the "price charged" unaccounted for. Who's paying that? Is it not being paid? If it's not paid, how can it be counted as an expense?




#1 - The median American, working a blue- or white-collar, medium income job, with average employer-supplied healthcare is neither a person of "great means", nor a person that's denied access to top tier medical care. The whole narrative of "the 1%ers are the only ones with access to great health care while 99% founder in backwater clinics and die in shelters" is just as inaccurate as the narrative of "'Murica is the greatest at everything yo".

#2 - If it's true that Americans are fatter, less exercise-inclined, eat a worse diet, have more unprotected sex, use more drugs, do less preventative care, shoot each other more frequently, work longer hours with fewer vacations than other countries like Germany or Sweden, then making health care cost comparisons is sketchy at best. Of COURSE a basically unhealthier population is going to have higher costs than a basically healthier population.

I'm TOTALLY on board with the need for improvements and possibly fundamental changes to the way the health care system in the US works. Frankly, changes MUST be made, we can't continue along the current path without making some adjustments. And I'm totally ok with cherry picking good ideas from other countries. But this is a deep and complicated subject with about a zillion variables. Drawing a "we gotta do" conclusion based on short mainstream media articles isn't going to get us there.
It is declared as a loss, which allows the hospitals to continue treating illegals and drug addicts without going bankrupt.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 05:02 PM   #60
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 504
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousharenow View Post
9k to have a god damn kid?

Why? Ill just not pay like the droves of women that have litters of kids.

Or move to CanadA
Abortion is cheaper.
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use