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Old 07-03-2013, 08:53 AM   #81
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Exactly my point. The US is not comparable to any other nation. No other nation has our standards, our way of life, our population size, and our illegal problem COMBINED. Hence, saying "we should just adopt the system from country XYZ" is a childish argument.
The European Union as a whole has a larger population and a better rated healthcare system.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:16 AM   #82
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The European Union as a whole has a larger population and a better rated healthcare system.
Rated based on what?
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:26 AM   #83
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Rated based on what?
Quick glance at the rankings over at the WHO would reaffirm that statement.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:34 AM   #84
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And here I was thinking there would be an honest, open dialogue on ways we can improve our healthcare system. Instead, it's a bunch of trolls yelling that Obamacare will increase care, decrease costs, and encourage the education of more doctors
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:41 AM   #85
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Quick glance at the rankings over at the WHO would reaffirm that statement.
No. If it's going to be cited as a way to "prove" something, the citer needs to be able to explain why/how it's accurate to show they truly understand and aren't just mindlessly regurgitating what someone else says is true.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:42 AM   #86
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And here I was thinking there would be an honest, open dialogue on ways we can improve our healthcare system.
We all know that's not what you were thinking.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:42 AM   #87
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And here I was thinking there would be an honest, open dialogue on ways we can improve our healthcare system. Instead, it's a bunch of trolls yelling that Obamacare will increase care, decrease costs, and encourage the education of more doctors
Well, now at least we have a troll on the other side of the argument.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:51 AM   #88
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I think we can all agree that our system is broken and needs to be fixed. I think we can all agree that money being no object, the US has the best MEDICAL CARE.

Now if we can all agree that the system is broken and needs fixing but NOT by the government (except tort reform) then we can have a productive discussion. Discussing the improvement of our healthcare system with people that believe the government should be in charge of it IMHO is a pointless exercise.


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Old 07-03-2013, 10:00 AM   #89
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I think we can all agree that our system is broken and needs to be fixed. I think we can all agree that money being no object, the US has the best MEDICAL CARE.

Now if we can all agree that the system is broken and needs fixing but NOT by the government (except tort reform) then we can have a productive discussion. Discussing the improvement of our healthcare system with people that believe the government should be in charge of it IMHO is a pointless exercise.


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Tort reform would be a good start, and I know you and I have gone back and forth on interstate insurance. I've recently done some more reading on it and I'm understanding it more. I thought you'd like this article below as I thought it was pretty good:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/201...-reduce-costs/
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:11 AM   #90
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Interesting article, but I still don't see a good argument against interstate insurance buying. NY/NJ insurance rates are almost 6x the price of Arizona, Utah, etc. there is no actually reason for this other than some idiot politicians and lobbyists making it so. Sure maybe a state like NY covers dumb things like drug counseling which drastically increases the costs but just like we need to Feds to reign in the spending the insurance companies also need to control what they cover. Hell, the fact that politicians and lobbyists are involved in locking down insurance on a state only basis shows that something's "rotten in the state of Denmark." We all agree that this can't be fixed overnight and it will have to be done gradually. I think tort reform is an excellent and reasonable first step.


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Old 07-03-2013, 10:13 AM   #91
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Interesting article, but I still don't see a good argument against interstate insurance buying. NY/NJ insurance rates are almost 6x the price of Arizona, Utah, etc. there is no actually reason for this other than some idiot politicians and lobbyists making it so. Sure maybe a state like NY covers dumb things like drug counseling which drastically increases the costs but just like we need to Feds to reign in the spending the insurance companies also need to control what they cover. Hell, the fact that politicians and lobbyists are involved in locking down insurance on a state only basis shows that something's "rotten in the state of Denmark." We all agree that this can't be fixed overnight and it will have to be done gradually. I think tort reform is an excellent and reasonable first step.


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I don't either, actually, now that I know more about it. The article even mentions that it's lobbyists who are keeping the interstate sales at bay.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:16 AM   #92
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I think we can all agree that money being no object, the US has the best MEDICAL CARE.
And how does the US rank with regards to medical care when money is an object? That seems like a better question to ask considering it better reflects real life.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:16 AM   #93
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I don't either, actually, now that I know more about it. The article even mentions that it's lobbyists who are keeping the interstate sales at bay.
Before all that (not aimed at you) people need to first admit that the government is incapable of running something like the healthcare industry and that the people wouldn't benefit. The whole point of fixing the problem is to remove the be autocrats, the politicians, the lobbyists, etc.


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Old 07-03-2013, 10:23 AM   #94
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And how does the US rank with regards to medical care when money is an object? That seems like a better question to ask considering it better reflects real life.
Well, in all honesty, when you consider the one single fact that matters, still probably the best or one of the best in the world.

The main fact is, no matter what, American's get treatment. If you break your arm, you WILL get treated in a clean hospital with a qualified doctor and registered nurse. No one is left out on the street to die in the US. Furthermore, American's are generally the most charitable people on the planet. Churches, private institutions, drives, etc, tons of money and many people are helped everyday that don't have money. Our government takes care of the very poor, and the middle class takes care of each other.

Do some people get treatment and get smacked with a large bill? Absolutely. However, those people are alive and healthy and live to complain about it.

For comparison's sake, and I realize this is anectodal evidence...right NOW...not during the USSR days (I can tell you all about that if interested), if you come to a hospital in Russia, you will get treated...except you have to bring your own clothing, no showers, and oh, one more thing...YOUR OWN DRUGS. You're in pain? Bring your own morphine. Need a gown? Bring your own. Is this what people want?
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:31 AM   #95
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The main fact is, no matter what, American's get treatment.


And you're going to lecture us about not knowing the industry?
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:51 AM   #96
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And you're going to lecture us about not knowing the industry?
Break your arm, and tell me when you get turned away. Get into a car accident, and let me know if an ambulance shows up. Get shot, and let me know if you are left outside on the curb. Let me know when you walk into a hospital and the ER is empty.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:07 AM   #97
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Break your arm, and tell me when you get turned away. Get into a car accident, and let me know if an ambulance shows up. Get shot, and let me know if you are left outside on the curb. Let me know when you walk into a hospital and the ER is empty.
You are billed for all the above. And since you're in favor of providing examples to prove a point you'll certainly appreciate this one...


You're diagnosed with cancer....
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:11 AM   #98
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You are billed, but you still get treatment. Cancer is a minute AND insignificant portion of overall healthcare expediture, so that argument is holds absolutely no water. Correction, although cancer is a minute healthcare expenditure, the portion of cancer expenditure that people can't pay for is a fraction of that. For some reason, you believe the government will be able to reduce these costs, so like I said earlier, this discussion is pointless.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:20 AM   #99
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You are billed, but you still get treatment. Cancer is a minute AND insignificant portion of overall healthcare expediture, so that argument is holds absolutely no water.
Expensive Conditions Contribute to the Growth in Health Care Costs

One study found that a small number of conditions accounted for most of the growth in total health care spending between 1987 and 2000—with the top five medical conditions (heart disease, pulmonary disorders, mental disorders, cancer, and trauma) accounting for 31 percent -- Source


Unless you can afford treatment you will not receive said treatment, therefor invalidating your previous claims. You've clearly demonstrated that you are not well informed when it comes to the health care industry and as a result you should cease pretending to be an authority on the matter simply because a couple members of your family happen to be doctors.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:24 AM   #100
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Cancer is a minute AND insignificant portion of overall healthcare expediture, so that argument is holds absolutely no water.
Cancer costs projected to reach at least $158 billion in 2020.

Based on growth and aging of the U.S. population, medical expenditures for cancer in the year 2020 are projected to reach at least $158 billion (in 2010 dollars) — an increase of 27 percent over 2010, according to a National Institutes of Health analysis. If newly developed tools for cancer diagnosis, treatment, and follow-up continue to be more expensive, medical expenditures for cancer could reach as high as $207 billion, said the researchers from the National Cancer Institute (NCI), part of the NIH. The analysis appears online, Jan. 12, 2011, in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute. -- Source
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