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Old 07-17-2013, 06:10 PM   #21
scottjoh
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Electrical Gremlins...still after hours of TroubleShooting! Help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvale127 View Post
BTW some things I forgot to add

2) Passenger Mirror no longer goes down when in Reverse...HOWEVER both mirros still can be moved with the switch joystick.

3) Windows no longer go up when I press the Lock button on the remote (like i used to be able to before)

4) Windows STILL go down with the unlock button, HOWEVER, the sunroof remains closed! Everything used to open before.


Here is a pic of what James (Hollywood516) wrote down that stood out to us while scanning my car yesterday with PASoft:
Mirror doesn't go down when shifting to reverse because general module gets information on what gear you're in over the k-bus. Manual mirror control goes direct.

Sunroof doesn't open because general modules tells the sunroof module to open over the k-bus.

Looking at the list if fault I am not surprised to see a K-bus fault from the instrument cluster.

Last edited by scottjoh; 07-17-2013 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 07-17-2013, 06:20 PM   #22
Cvale127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmax View Post
Just for me, go back and check on your battery again. If it's older than say 4-5 years, don't mess with it, just get a new one.

You can have the voltage but not the amps. You know, I drove almost 40 miles with a dead alternator...at night, with headlights on (should've turned them off and I bet I would have gone farther by a good bit!) You need both voltage and amps.

And, +1 with the 'check the cables on bat terminals are tight, not just tightened.'

Then, my guess is ignition switch...almost every ignition switch failure thread that I've read includes issues at steering wheel and the radio.

...and then, if it is a weak bat, maybe your electronic thingy wasn't installed right...as in, could it be drawing power and draining your bat? Just musing.

Final point is to be careful about spending money and time hunting an odd electrical problem before you've 'really' verified that you don't just have the most common of problems...weak/dead bat.

BTW, next week in OT, I'll be doing a thread on personal grooming and treating the ladies right. You don't want to miss it. Sign up in advance!



As I stated before, the battery is not even 2 years old and I already properly tested it and it is 100% fully functional, as well as the alternator, so I can rule both of those out.

I have also heard alot of people complain about similar issues with a faulty ignition switch, however, most of those people would have trouble starting their cars and their radio would not function properly as you mentioned. I'm not experiencing NEITHER of these 2 issues, my radio is 100% fully functional besides the display being dim.

Treating the ladies right huh? Sometimes they don't deserve that




Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjoh View Post
There is not quick way of figuring out k-bus problems. There is no magic software. There is no short cut. You either get lucky or you buckle down and follow jeurotech's instructions and figure it out. CAN timeout was probably a DME fault code and has nothing to do with your K-bus problem. You might have noticed when scanning the car with a BMW specific scanner (not generic OBD-II) that most of the modules are unreadable, no communication. Only modules that you can read are the DME, transmission, ABS and IKE. The other modules not readable of course is a typical k-bus problem.


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I do believe I saw many things that showed unreadable. I spoke to a technician at a shop in my area which is BMW certified, and explained many of these symptoms I'm having to him. He doesn't think it can be the LCM (light control module) since ALL my exterior lights do function properly...and I do agree since I have read that the people who have had faulty LCM's experience problems where 1 headlight, or both, will not turn on, and same goes for fogs.


He is so convinced that it has to be the Body Control Module (or as we would say GM5), especially based on what I told him has happened with the door locks, how the car sometimes shows open doors altough they are closed, and the fact that all my exterior lights do work altough the cluster does not show signal indicator or foglight symbol. He also agreed with me on the theory that perhaps the ipod kit I removed eventually caused a short over time (used it less than 2 full months before I began experiencing these problems) and screwed up a module.


He is willing to take a look at the car for free on Tuesday (since I'm a repeat customer and have taken my RX8 their in the past), but I'm curious about disconnecting the plugs on the GM5 module Sunday morning to see what happens. So if I disconnect all 3 plus and the problems are GONE (i.e turning signal indicators on cluster, foglight symbol etc...) than that would mean that module IS in fact faulty correct?


If this fails I will take the KBUS comb out and play the game of process of elimination with those wires. The diagram in that link you provided shows in what order the KBUS wires inside the comb are in right? So from my understanding when i disconnect them one by one(after determining that the BUS is in fact below 12V) until i finally notice the voltage on the BUS shoot back up to the proper 12V.......then I can go ahead and put wires back ON until I do find the faulty one/module, and then go to this diagram to match that wire with its corresponding module correct?

These next 2 questions might seem obvious but just want to be sure...I should turn the car ON while removing these wires one by one right? Since the Problems with the instrument cluster I'm having appear only when the car is running...

and it would definitely be wise to label these wires with tape and number since I'm guessing it matters what order you put them back in right?

Thanks alot scottjoh!! I really appreciate the time your taking to help me out man.

Last edited by Cvale127; 07-17-2013 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 07-17-2013, 10:32 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvale127 View Post
I do believe I saw many things that showed unreadable. I spoke to a technician at a shop in my area which is BMW certified, and explained many of these symptoms I'm having to him. He doesn't think it can be the LCM (light control module) since ALL my exterior lights do function properly...and I do agree since I have read that the people who have had faulty LCM's experience problems where 1 headlight, or both, will not turn on, and same goes for fogs.
You can't point blame at any module right now. Even if all the functions on the module work it could be a problem with the K-bus transceiver chip for most modules it's the Elmos 10012A which is a custom # for BMW. For a data sheet look up Elmos E910.15. This chip interfaces the microcontroller in the module to the K-bus. If this chip fails in any of the modules it can cause this problem you are having.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvale127 View Post
He is so convinced that it has to be the Body Control Module (or as we would say GM5), especially based on what I told him has happened with the door locks, how the car sometimes shows open doors altough they are closed, and the fact that all my exterior lights do work altough the cluster does not show signal indicator or foglight symbol.
If your technician was knowledgeable on what the K-bus was used for he would not have said what he did. The reason the door ajar status on the cluster was wrong was because the k-bus is screwed up and that is how the ajar information gets from the general module to the cluster. Same for the following cluster indicators: fog light, high beams and turn signals. The only one that does not go through the K-bus is the seat belt warning light. That wire goes direct to the cluster and if that light doesn't work then I would suspect the cluster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvale127 View Post
... but I'm curious about disconnecting the plugs on the GM5 module Sunday morning to see what happens. So if I disconnect all 3 plus and the problems are GONE (i.e turning signal indicators on cluster, foglight symbol etc...) than that would mean that module IS in fact faulty correct?
Yes and no. You should give it a few days in case the problem is another module that got reset when you disconnected the battery to pull the GM. Make sure the problem doesn't come back later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvale127 View Post
The diagram in that link you provided shows in what order the KBUS wires inside the comb are in right?
There is no order. Follow jbeurotech's instructions. He briefly explains how to determine which module you have disconnected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvale127 View Post
These next 2 questions might seem obvious but just want to be sure...I should turn the car ON while removing these wires one by one right? Since the Problems with the instrument cluster I'm having appear only when the car is running...
Read jbeurotech's instructions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvale127 View Post
and it would definitely be wise to label these wires with tape and number since I'm guessing it matters what order you put them back in right?
Order makes no difference. It's just a shorting bar. Read jbeurotech's instructions.
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Old 07-17-2013, 11:33 PM   #24
Cvale127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjoh View Post
If your technician was knowledgeable on what the K-bus was used for he would not have said what he did. The reason the door ajar status on the cluster was wrong was because the k-bus is screwed up and that is how the ajar information gets from the general module to the cluster. Same for the following cluster indicators: fog light, high beams and turn signals. The only one that does not go through the K-bus is the seat belt warning light. That wire goes direct to the cluster and if that light doesn't work then I would suspect the cluster.

Right now the only light that stays illuminated on the cluster is the sealt belt warning light, other than the occasional door ajar indicator.

I have performed the instrument cluster "Test 2" multiple times to make sure all the lights and gauges work, so I doubt I have a faulty cluster. I will start off sunday morning by checking out the voltage on the BUS. Thanks

Last edited by Cvale127; 07-17-2013 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 07-18-2013, 12:05 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvale127 View Post
Right now the only light that stays illuminated on the cluster is the sealt belt warning light, other than the occasional door ajar indicator.

I have performed the instrument cluster "Test 2" multiple times to make sure all the lights and gauges work, so I doubt I have a faulty cluster. I will start off sunday morning by checking out the voltage on the BUS. Thanks
Just because you are able to do the Test#2 and all light illuminate does not mean the cluster is 100% good!
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Old 07-19-2013, 06:16 AM   #26
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OP, FYI Scottjoh is the GM5/Kbus guru.

He is rarely wrong, but I think you need to do a bit more research and trouble shooting to get a better idea of what is going on. As he indicated there are a lot of module that are connected to the Kbus and any one of these modules or could be causing havoc on the Kbus line.

Something may have been zapped on the Kbus line due to the installation of the Grom unit?

Seat belt warning light may be a problem with the seat belt buckle or wiring. You may want to try an spoof the seat belt sensor.

Not sure this is pertinent, but might be worth a check??

And I am not making this story up!!!!

I was working on a car at one point that had a problem with the airbag light that came on. The airbag code was for a seat back sensor. Upon inspection it turned out that a tomato had rolled under the seat and come in contact with the large connector for the seat controls and the tomato had a break in the skin right at the connector as the edge pierced it and cause the acidic juice from the tomato to enter the connector. The acidic juice along with Voltage corroded and actually at up some of the terminals in the connector.

So do not rule out unusual things, moisture, corrosion and so forth. Sometimes disconnecting connects and inspecting things is a cheap and easy way to start. Not 100% sure, but I believe the seat memory module is likely connected to the Kbus?? So check this area to be 100% sure everything looks clean.
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Last edited by jfoj; 07-19-2013 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:46 PM   #27
Cvale127
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Progress so far...

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjoh View Post
Just because you are able to do the Test#2 and all light illuminate does not mean the cluster is 100% good!

So Sunday morning I finally found sometime to get to the KBUS box, and while testing the voltage with a multimeter I noticed it was indeed being pulled low.

Here were the readings I got:

Car off => 11.73V

Car with key in ignition on 2nd position => 11.85V

Car RUNNING => 2.06V !


So I began to remove the first wire, turned the car on... and viola! The Voltage now showed around 12.23V if I remember correctly. Most of the problems went away.

The things that were now once again fully functional were:

1) Steering wheel controls
2) Signal indicators on cluster
3) A/C began blowing cold air
4) Foglight symbol on cluster

I thought my problems were completely gone until I shut the car off and noticed:

1) Doors were not locking with the remote
2) Door ajar indicator on cluster still showed a door was open although I was inside the car with all of them closed
3) Seat belt indicator light remained on

So then just out of curiosity I disconnected both of the white plugs on the GM5 and reconnected. Started the car up once more and now the seat belt light was off, door ajar indicators was showing NO doors open, and the doors locked and unlocked fine with the remote when exiting.

I ran out of time and had to go run some errands so I left that BUS wire unplugged and decided I will wait a few more days to see if I noticed any changes before I continue with the diagnosis. I drove about 50 miles yesterday and everything was working great besides the door ajar indicators, sunroof 1 touch controls, and passenger side mirror will still NOT go down when in reverse.

So far I'm thinking more than 1 module is screwed up since disconnecting that 1 BUS wire cured most of the issues but not all.... Is that even possible though?? especially since after removing that wire the voltage on the comb now showed 12.23V...

Also, I ordered PASoft and it should be arriving next week. I know most threads mention using GT1 to find the faulty modules but do you think I would be able to figure this out with the PASoft instead?





Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
OP, FYI Scottjoh is the GM5/Kbus guru.

He is rarely wrong, but I think you need to do a bit more research and trouble shooting to get a better idea of what is going on. As he indicated there are a lot of module that are connected to the Kbus and any one of these modules or could be causing havoc on the Kbus line.

Something may have been zapped on the Kbus line due to the installation of the Grom unit?

Seat belt warning light may be a problem with the seat belt buckle or wiring. You may want to try an spoof the seat belt sensor.

Not sure this is pertinent, but might be worth a check??

And I am not making this story up!!!!

I was working on a car at one point that had a problem with the airbag light that came on. The airbag code was for a seat back sensor. Upon inspection it turned out that a tomato had rolled under the seat and come in contact with the large connector for the seat controls and the tomato had a break in the skin right at the connector as the edge pierced it and cause the acidic juice from the tomato to enter the connector. The acidic juice along with Voltage corroded and actually at up some of the terminals in the connector.

So do not rule out unusual things, moisture, corrosion and so forth. Sometimes disconnecting connects and inspecting things is a cheap and easy way to start. Not 100% sure, but I believe the seat memory module is likely connected to the Kbus?? So check this area to be 100% sure everything looks clean.


That is one crazy story haha. That's why you should never eat in your BMW!
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:26 PM   #28
Sapote
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgknight View Post
You are sure both battery terminals are sufficiently tight yes? What you describe could be caused by a bad ground.
... and this "I see your battery has checked out as fine, but then there is the charging system and grounding."

I don't think battery and the ground strap between engine and chassis is a suspect -- if it's not solid tight, it never have enough juice to crank the engine with starter.


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Old 07-29-2013, 11:36 PM   #29
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Results after scanning with PA Soft...

So I wanted to share with you guys what I noticed when I finally got my PA Soft and scanned the car without reconnecting that BUS wire i had left DISCONNECTED last week. I did multiple scans (1st with the key in position 1), and then I did some more scans with the key in position 2.

Here are the errors that stood out to me at first during the 1st scan:

1)IKE Instrument Cluster
BE[190]Data-filing diference to central light module (LCM)
87[135]Body-Bus (K-BUS)

*However both were yellowing showing the fault was currently not present

2)TEL Car Telephone
6E[110] E-Call LED not connected (this was yellow so not currently present)

Shadow:
11[017] Ibus access error (this was also yellow)
15[012] NAD Transceiver failure (THIS WAS RED, which meant the fault was currently present)

3) EWS Electronic Car Immobilizer

Shadow:
04[004] Passengers Airbag stage 1, resistance too high


I didn't think much of these except for that red NAD transceiver fault code, so I went ahead and tried clearing them, and they did clear.

**BTW all of the modules on page 2 or 3 were 'not found' with the exception of the 1)Sliding/Tilting Sunroof (SHD) and 2)Seat memory, Driver (SMF).


When I put the key in Position 2...some errors that didn't appear before, did now.

Please look at the Pics:
1)Pic 1 are of 5 ABS errors that I couldn't take off, however, they are yellow. Should I be concerned with these?

2)Pic 2 are of 2 error codes in the LEW (Steering Angle Sensor) that concerned me because they were showing as Faults currently present. HOWEVER, i was able to clear these and they didn't show up anymore on my final scan.

3)Pic 3 is of the FINAL scan I performed after clearing most of the codes I previously had. The 2 LCM errors I'm not concerned about (High Beams L & R) because I know they are for 2 LED bulbs I installed in the DRL's a few weeks ago. BUT you can see that the 5 error codes under ABS, and that air bag error under SRS are still there. Should I be concerned even though they are yellow and not "currently present"?

**The module that stood out to me the most because it kept saying "no data" everytime I scanned the car over and over is the MFL (Multi-Function steering wheel), could this be my problem?

I feel that I'm very close to figuring out which module is faulty, but I still could use some help from you experts!! Thanks in advance!!
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:41 AM   #30
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Hm... I could be wrong but I think perhaps its in the coding of your gm module or ike is where your problem lies. However, this problem I do not believe can be fully solved with pa soft. Ncs expert or whatever those other inferior programs are called will be needed.

Example, using ncs expert, I can do odd things like dictate whether the trunk lid indicator on my dash turn off when its closed, or remain lit no matter what (why would they even put that in there?) I guess I can spend a few minutes to use ncsexpert to attempt and make my seat belt light stay on regardless. Let me get back to you.

Oh yeah, so the seat belt light stays on even if seat belt is on?
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Old 07-31-2013, 08:36 PM   #31
Cvale127
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Electrical Gremlins...still after hours of TroubleShooting! Help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumbaOneNewb View Post
Hm... I could be wrong but I think perhaps its in the coding of your gm module or ike is where your problem lies. However, this problem I do not believe can be fully solved with pa soft. Ncs expert or whatever those other inferior programs are called will be needed.

Example, using ncs expert, I can do odd things like dictate whether the trunk lid indicator on my dash turn off when its closed, or remain lit no matter what (why would they even put that in there?) I guess I can spend a few minutes to use ncsexpert to attempt and make my seat belt light stay on regardless. Let me get back to you.

Oh yeah, so the seat belt light stays on even if seat belt is on?
Yes, the seat belt light used to remain on even with my seat belt on......but disconnecting that 1 KBUS wire that i mentioned earlier from the comb eliminated this issue. Now it functions normally and is only on when the seat belt is off.


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Old 07-31-2013, 08:37 PM   #32
Cvale127
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Electrical Gremlins...still after hours of TroubleShooting! Help!!

Based on what i've said so far, and the results from the PA Soft Scans...do you guys think the faulty module could be the Volute/Clock Spring??


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Old 07-31-2013, 10:50 PM   #33
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Electrical Gremlins...still after hours of TroubleShooting! Help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvale127 View Post
Yes, the seat belt light used to remain on even with my seat belt on......but disconnecting that 1 KBUS wire that i mentioned earlier from the comb eliminated this issue. Now it functions normally and is only on when the seat belt is off.
What module is that 1 K-Bus wire for? Use scanner to see which module disappears or it might be the MFL which didn't show up. The seat belt sensor goes directly to the cluster so I don't see any reason why or even how a K-bus could affect it! That doesn't make sense. The volute spring could be bad causing the MFL to not show up, but, it would not cause K-bus errors only between the LCM and the ZKE that would have to be a LCM or ZKE problem.

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Old 08-01-2013, 12:04 AM   #34
Cvale127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjoh View Post
What module is that 1 K-Bus wire for? Use scanner to see which module disappears or it might be the MFL which didn't show up. The seat belt sensor goes directly to the cluster so I don't see any reason why or even how a K-bus could affect it! That doesn't make sense. The volute spring could be bad causing the MFL to not show up, but, it would not cause K-bus errors only between the LCM and the ZKE that would have to be a LCM or ZKE problem.
I thought I was getting so close, but doesn't seem that way anymore. This has been quite a challenge. I've been driving over a week now with that 1 K-Bus wire disconnected, and almost everything (steering wheel controls, foglight and turn signals on cluster, A/C blowing cold, doors will always lock with key fob again, and Seat belt light working correctly) has been working fine. My guess is that the seat belt sensor was reset somehow when I disconnected the 2 white connectors on the GM5 module 10 days ago?? It has been functioning correctly ever since.

I'm thinking that the Bus wire is for the MFL since everytime I scan the car I see "no data"...but if this was the only faulty module, and I've been driving around with its K-Bus wire disconnected...wouldn't the ENTIRE car be acting normal?

Like I said before, I've been driving over a week with that wire disconnected and here are the things that are still not functioning properly:

1) Passenger side mirror still wont go down when in reverse
2) Door ajar indicators are not functioning with that wire disconnected (i.e will not show a door is open when I open one(
3) Sunroof one-touch opening no longer works
4) Sunroof will not open when using the key fob to open all windows
5) Windows will not close with the lock button on key fob...I have to manually use the key to close all windows.

The car's coding for Numbers 3-5 I'm guessing were screwed up somehow during all the troubleshooting I did with the battery...so I'm hoping they can be fixed with just a simple reprogramming/coding in the ZKE.

Numbers 1 and 2 is are what have me puzzled. Do you think I might have more than 1 fault module?
Also, if this were the volute spring causing my issues, my air bag light would most likely remain on and the horn wouldn't work (according to some threads I've read) correct? So I don't see how that could be it.
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Old 09-22-2013, 06:12 PM   #35
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I "sorta" solved my issue ...K bus issues

I have been having a lot of the same issues with volume control, blinker indicators, seat belt light, sunroof inop, key beeper, ...
.I took the steering colume covers off, wiggled all the wiring, nothing really happened. Read here that the i pod wiring may be the issue. R&R ed the radio and I wiggled the main harness behind the radio and things came back to life, "EXCEPT" the sunroof operation. Read in manual that I should/would have to re-initiate the sunroof, but have been unable to figure that one out, the tilt up operation works, but NOT the slide back oreration. So .... still searching. Any comments or suggestions where to look next ? Thanks ....
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:42 AM   #36
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Does the sunshade close all the way? Even if it did, could be that a component that's part of your sunroof system is laying on the track and is blocking it's path.
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Old 01-18-2014, 05:04 PM   #37
Cvale127
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 38
My Ride: 2005 330ci ZHP
UPDATE

2 weeks ago I took the car to a BMW tech for an oil change and re-scanned my car with his computer. The only module that would NOT respond to a diagnostic request (WITH THE 1 KBUS WIRE I HAD REMOVED) was the Body Module (ZKE). So we were so sure that that 1 disconnected KBUS wire had to lead to the GM5 module. By the way, a month before he had removed my cluster and installed it on another E46 and he said it was functioning fine....he also did the same with my GM5.

But anyway...I decided I would buy a used GM5 on ebay and see if i got lucky. The next day I pulled out my GM5 to get the parts numbers so I could order the EXACT same one for my car. When I re-installed in...my windows would no longer go up and down with the buttons inside, and the wipers would not work either. Any ideas why this happened!!??? Could it be because I pulled out the module without disconnecting the battery?

When I received the used GM5 the other day that I ordered on ebay...I re-connected that KBUS wire that I have been driving without these past 6 months, and installed the new GM5. NO LUCK!!!!! All my problems are still there!....and now even worse since in the process of getting the part numbers my windows will not go up and down and I cannot use the wipers on a rainy day.

This is really frustrating, I'm back to square one. The only other thing I can think of now is to replace the module for the MFL (which I believe is the volute/clock spring behing the steering wheel) since it shows "not found" when I scan with PA SOFT?

BTW, when I tried scanning the car once again with the KBUS wire and GM5 I ordered installed, and it wouldn't even connect to the car. It would say "connection error with LCM". I'm really baffled by this


Any ideas guys?? Scott?? I'm tired of driving around like this...been 6 months now! I had a guy interested in purchasing the car and wanted to see it tommorow....but I'm obviously not going to show it to anyone until I solve this problem.

Thanks in advance!!
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