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///M3 Forum
The BMW E46 ///M3 is the M version E46 and puts out an amazing 333 HP and 262 lb-ft of torque at stock specs! There are an amazing amount of modifications for both the coupe and convertible models so read up and get started modifying your cars today!

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Old 07-18-2013, 08:09 AM   #1
Twin_Turbo_S54
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9000 rpm valvetrain

S54 valvetrain malfunctions over 8250 rpm on boosted and N/A S54s.

Is there any interest for a 9000 rpm revving S54 valvetrain inc valves, retainers, springs ans cams?

I designed my own system and been revving 9000-9200 rpm for the last 4 years. Will there be any interest?
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:26 AM   #2
Obioban
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Not if it's your that's making/selling it, Mert. You've suckered/screwed enough people over the years.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:33 AM   #3
Twin_Turbo_S54
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Not if it's your that's making/selling it, Mert. You've suckered/screwed enough people over the years.
Obioban,

relax.

Where are all those screwed people? Would you bring one of them?

I ve desinged and been using my custom valve train for the last 4 years and revving 9000 rpm. There are 2 more members where I leave and they know the 9000 rpm.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:21 AM   #4
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pics, vids info? Curious to see and hear an s54 reving to 9k. 8k is plenty for me, yea we all know there's more power to be had, but at what cost lol.. a full head job required to rev to 9k's going to cost you north of what.. 5-6k by the time machining and **** is done.
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:07 AM   #5
DSilk56
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If BMW felt the need to specify a specially-made oil for the M3 after early production year crankshaft bearing failures at 8,000 rpm, what will be the longevity of those bearings (or the rods and wrist pins) at 9,000 rpm? Moreover, although people assume that you will increase power by upping the red line from 8,000 to 9,000, the impact on peak power is entirely dependent upon the torque curve above 8,000 rpm. I would note that our cars generate peak power at 7,900 rpm, which means that power is already starting to decrease at 8,000 rpm.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:43 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by DSilk56 View Post
If BMW felt the need to specify a specially-made oil for the M3 after early production year crankshaft bearing failures at 8,000 rpm, what will be the longevity of those bearings (or the rods and wrist pins) at 9,000 rpm? Moreover, although people assume that you will increase power by upping the red line from 8,000 to 9,000, the impact on peak power is entirely dependent upon the torque curve above 8,000 rpm. I would note that our cars generate peak power at 7,900 rpm, which means that power is already starting to decrease at 8,000 rpm.
Yes. Look at the HP curve on an M. At 7900 it wains, adding an extra 1000 RPM just gives you more overrev, You would want to shift at peak anyway. If you look at the torque, you are gradually decreasing after 4900.

I would prefer to move the torque and hp peak closer together.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:03 PM   #7
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A higher redline on boosted applications has proven useful. On NA I agree with the above unless you have one balls to the wall built NA s54 then you could benefit. And a potential solution for the rod bearings could be vacs coated set. I'm considering changing mine out in favor of their bearings once I find some solid info on them.

Going to 9k should theoretically require removing the vanos as I remember reading somewhere that it could no longer keep up with controlling the cams at a certain high rpm. So what new cams, rocker arms, valves, guides, springs, retainers, vanos delete... sounds an awful like a VAC built race motor to me.. You can't just stick cams and then change an 8 to a 9 in the tune and be okay. This would require an immense amount of work at the benefit of what?
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Old 07-19-2013, 06:35 PM   #8
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Not sure where the peak hp at 7900 rpm's comments are coming from (unless referring to stock DME). I've seen numerous Epic Motorsport tuned cars make power up to 8200 rpm. Even with that, not sure what the benefits of 9000 rpm would be unless power could be had.

Edit: Here is a thread full of dyno's. After looking I would agree with the 7900 rpm comments I previously questioned. Although if you look at the tuned cars they make plenty more power above the 7900 mark. My old car is in there as well.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=365722

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Old 07-20-2013, 05:08 AM   #9
Twin_Turbo_S54
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Originally Posted by DSilk56 View Post
If BMW felt the need to specify a specially-made oil for the M3 after early production year crankshaft bearing failures at 8,000 rpm, what will be the longevity of those bearings (or the rods and wrist pins) at 9,000 rpm? Moreover, although people assume that you will increase power by upping the red line from 8,000 to 9,000, the impact on peak power is entirely dependent upon the torque curve above 8,000 rpm. I would note that our cars generate peak power at 7,900 rpm, which means that power is already starting to decrease at 8,000 rpm.
Oil: at least 3 off the shelf fully synthetic oils do the job.

with the proper camshafts, oversize valves, port & polish power RAISES from 8000 rpm till 9200 rpm. I had a dyno and did at least 10.000 runs on the dyno. On all tests power keeps on raising till 9000-9200 rpm.

Bearing life: calico coated bearings are very reliable.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Moosecakes View Post
pics, vids info? Curious to see and hear an s54 reving to 9k. 8k is plenty for me, yea we all know there's more power to be had, but at what cost lol.. a full head job required to rev to 9k's going to cost you north of what.. 5-6k by the time machining and **** is done.
I have vids on youtube. just type in 60-130 mph 4.23 s M3 on youtubee


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandXTC View Post
Yes. Look at the HP curve on an M. At 7900 it wains, adding an extra 1000 RPM just gives you more overrev, You would want to shift at peak anyway. If you look at the torque, you are gradually decreasing after 4900.

I would prefer to move the torque and hp peak closer together.

stock head, stock cams you are right.
with modified cams, valves, port, polish, valvetrain parts power keeps on raising till 9000 rpm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moosecakes View Post
A higher redline on boosted applications has proven useful. On NA I agree with the above unless you have one balls to the wall built NA s54 then you could benefit. And a potential solution for the rod bearings could be vacs coated set. I'm considering changing mine out in favor of their bearings once I find some solid info on them.

Going to 9k should theoretically require removing the vanos as I remember reading somewhere that it could no longer keep up with controlling the cams at a certain high rpm. So what new cams, rocker arms, valves, guides, springs, retainers, vanos delete... sounds an awful like a VAC built race motor to me.. You can't just stick cams and then change an 8 to a 9 in the tune and be okay. This would require an immense amount of work at the benefit of what?
vanos is always there, and I do play around vanos.
Without vanos low-mid range would die.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PerkM3 View Post
Not sure where the peak hp at 7900 rpm's comments are coming from (unless referring to stock DME). I've seen numerous Epic Motorsport tuned cars make power up to 8200 rpm. Even with that, not sure what the benefits of 9000 rpm would be unless power could be had.

Edit: Here is a thread full of dyno's. After looking I would agree with the 7900 rpm comments I previously questioned. Although if you look at the tuned cars they make plenty more power above the 7900 mark. My old car is in there as well.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=365722


S54 can make tremendous power if tuned properly. Its all in the parts and tune to unleash the hidden power. I ve made 1000 whp on Dynamics and thats like 1200 whp on dyno jet. Did lots of testing on S54 and can easily say that a well built S54 will make you happy till 9000 rpm.
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:47 AM   #10
mre
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9000 rpm valvetrain

Rod is too short, stroke is too long for 9000 rpms


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Old 07-20-2013, 07:05 AM   #11
Twin_Turbo_S54
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Rod is too short, stroke is too long for 9000 rpms


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this is on paper and in theory.

In real life 97 mm stroke ( 6 mm longer than stock stroke) does work awesome.
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:05 AM   #12
DSilk56
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Undersquare engines (like the M3's) are inherently ill-suited to ultra-high rpm work as contrasted with oversquare engines. Long strokes mean substantially higher piston speeds, and correspondingly higher stresses on reciprocating parts (which must, by definition, come to a complete stop and re-accelerate twice per stroke). Can it be done? Yes. The 8,000 rpm redline on our M3's was the province of F1 cars 65 years ago, but this is a good part of the reason that a new or refurbished engine for our cars is so expensive. Can the 6 banger in our cars be engineered to rev to 9000 rpm or higher, and make acceptable power there? My guess would be yes, but at a cost substantially above what a properly engineered forced induction system would cost.
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:07 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Twin_Turbo_S54 View Post
this is on paper and in theory.

In real life 97 mm stroke ( 6 mm longer than stock stroke) does work awesome.
Seriously??? There is no theory about it.

The S54 has nowhere near enough rod ratio to rev that kind of rpms and make any power. The power band is done way before and reving the engine up there does nothing but make noise
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:14 PM   #14
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