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Old 06-28-2019, 10:42 AM   #1841
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Originally Posted by VaderDave View Post
I'm merely stating observational facts. I expect that the facts will be different in the future.

EDIT: that's how most gerrymandering cases have been brought--through lawsuits by aggrieved parties. They typically show up in federal court because 1) it's mostly federal law and 2) there's a pretty common recognition that suing a state in state court is a sucker's bet.


Most parties seek relief for anticipated or perceived damage. They sue in federal court because they cannot prevail in state court and seek to use the federal courts as an instrument of policy making. Time for it to stop.
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Old 06-28-2019, 10:42 AM   #1842
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Most parties seek relief for anticipated or perceived damage. They sue in federal court because they cannot prevail in state court and seek to use the federal courts as an instrument of policy making. Time for it to stop.
Good luck with that.
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Old 06-28-2019, 10:48 AM   #1843
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Good luck with that.


It’s started. The ruling on Gerrymandering is a start.



Speaking of which, here is my Congressional District. Drawn under a Democrat controlled state house to be 53% black, 21% Hispanic.
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Old 06-28-2019, 11:41 AM   #1844
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Voters. If one party amasses enough political power to exploit redistricting, voters will determine when that party has gone too far and vote against that party.

This is neither difficult to understand nor a new dilemma that our founders didn't anticipate.

Gerrymandering is the worst solution, except every other solution that has been proposed. If someone has any great ideas, post them up and the serious few in here can discuss and debate it. I've got nothing but I'm open to ideas.
What if Gerrymandering goes so far that even a record turnout of voters can't vote that party out?
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Old 06-28-2019, 06:11 PM   #1845
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I can imagine using computers, data, GIS, and algorithms to redraw congressional district boundaries in a fair way.

Using non-partisan criteria, such algorithms can be used to generate less convoluted district boundaries that are more fair and representative.
It's not so much the tools or processes that are at issue. It is more the outcome and determining what is fair. It is true that more comprehensive, accurate data and more sophisticated methods are useful but mostly because they facilitate exploitation. But I don't see how you put those Genies back in the bottle.
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Old 06-28-2019, 06:51 PM   #1846
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It's not so much the tools or processes that are at issue. It is more the outcome and determining what is fair. It is true that more comprehensive, accurate data and more sophisticated methods are useful but mostly because they facilitate exploitation. But I don't see how you put those Genies back in the bottle.


While no replacement for the system we have now is likely to be completely without flaws, I think a replacement can be found that results in much less partisan gerrymandering and is much fairer to all. We are, after all, looking for a way to reduce gerrymandering and produce fair and acceptable district boundaries, are we not?

As for determining what is fair, let us first observe that gerrymandered districts are unfair - and therefore by reducing the extent to which they are gerrymandered, we can increase fairness (i.e. reduce unfairness).
So if we have an objective measure for how gerrymandered a voting district boundary is, we can use it to reduce gerrymandering and increase fairness.

One important characteristic of heavily gerrymandered voting districts is just how convoluted and complex their boundaries are. This is one of the most obvious and objectionable characteristics resulting from partisan gerrymandering. So one obvious metric for measuring how much partisan gerrymandering has occurred in a voting district is “compactness”. This metric can be determined by comparing the length of the districts boundary to its area. The greater the area to boundary length ratio, the more compact it is and the less gerrymandered it likely is.

Another such metric is called “efficiency gap” and is pretty clever. To explain this one I quote from policymap.com below:

>>
An alternative measure of gerrymandering gaining popularity is the “efficiency gap.” Instead of focusing on individual gerrymandered districts, the method compares the voting power of each political party in a state. Devised by Nicholas Stephanopoulos, Professor at the University of Chicago Law School, and Eric McGhee, Research Fellow at the Public Policy Institute of California, the efficiency gap calculates the wasted votes in each party and compares these counts to see if either party had an advantage in the number of votes they got compared with the number of seats they won.

The efficiency gap is first calculated by finding wasted votes. Wasted votes are considered any votes cast for the losing party, but also any votes cast for the wining party that constitute more than a simple majority. The total number of wasted votes in each party are calculated for the state, and the net difference is calculated between the two parties. For instance, if Democrats wasted 100 votes and Republicans wasted 75 votes, Democrats would have a net wasted value of 25. The final step in calculating the efficiency gap is to divide the net wasted voters by the total number of votes cast for that state in the specific election. The final efficiency gap measure tells if one party won a larger number of seats as compared to a neutral district plan. For instance, a 40 percent efficiency gap for Party A would mean that Party A won 40% more of the seats than it should have based on a proportionally fair share of its supporters. To see the efficiency gap calculated for each state, check out Azavea’s recent gerrymandering project.

By focusing on unused votes, the efficiency gap method is able to capture both cracking and packing gerrymandering methods, because both techniques try to increase the number of unused votes for the opposing political party while minimizing their own party or candidate’s unused votes. With cracking, a voting block is split between districts so they are not a majority in any district, and thus their votes never count towards electing a representative. With packing, all of a party’s supporters are concentrated into a few districts, where any votes greater than a simple majority are wasted on electing a representative that already won. Both of these methods are captured in the efficiency gap because it counts unused votes as both votes for the losing political party as well as votes in excess of a majority for the winning party. Further, by focusing on the voting power of each political party, it demonstrates which voters are unable to contribute to the election outcome based on their district characteristics.
>>
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Old 06-28-2019, 07:01 PM   #1847
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What if Gerrymandering goes so far that even a record turnout of voters can't vote that party out?
Which, of course, is the very purpose of Gerrymandering - its Catch 22 - to suppress and obviate to democratic abstract of one person, one vote that could be applied to root out the proponents of this pernicious practice.
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Old 06-28-2019, 07:09 PM   #1848
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It's not so much the tools or processes that are at issue. It is more the outcome and determining what is fair. It is true that more comprehensive, accurate data and more sophisticated methods are useful but mostly because they facilitate exploitation. But I don't see how you put those Genies back in the bottle.
Perhaps you can't put that genie back in the bottle, but then, you don't simply cede all the tools to the genie to do its evil and then simply throw up your hands because the problems too hard (which basically was the SCOTUS majority's weak rationale).
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Old 06-28-2019, 08:15 PM   #1849
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Most democracies outside the English-speaking world elect more than one representative per district. When the number of seats per district can be adjusted, the principle of "one person, one vote" can often be achieved without redrawing boundary lines at all. You simply add a seat to a district that has grown, and subtract that seat from one that shrink. That vastly reduces the possibility of reshaping outcomes by manipulating boundaries.
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Old 06-28-2019, 09:51 PM   #1850
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Most democracies outside the English-speaking world elect more than one representative per district. When the number of seats per district can be adjusted, the principle of "one person, one vote" can often be achieved without redrawing boundary lines at all. You simply add a seat to a district that has grown, and subtract that seat from one that shrink. That vastly reduces the possibility of reshaping outcomes by manipulating boundaries.
Well shoot fire, don't mention this to the "this program's unsolvable" SCOTUS, might blow their minds.
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Old 06-28-2019, 09:57 PM   #1851
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Well shoot fire, don't mention this to the "this program's unsolvable" SCOTUS, might blow their minds.


The GOP is going to gerrymander the shjt out of you for the next ten years!
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Old 06-29-2019, 02:44 PM   #1852
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The GOP is going to gerrymander the shjt out of you for the next ten years!
How? The Dems won many seats in the past election, now it's their turn to gerrymander for the next 10 years.
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Old 06-29-2019, 02:53 PM   #1853
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How? The Dems won many seats in the past election, now it's their turn to gerrymander for the next 10 years.


Take a civics course you dullard.

No wonder you hold such ignorant and insane ideas.

Repeat after me, “The states determine district boundaries, not Congress”.
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Old 06-29-2019, 03:11 PM   #1854
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Take a civics course you dullard.

No wonder you hold such ignorant and insane ideas.

Repeat after me, “The states determine district boundaries, not Congress”.
I know. Dems won a lot of state houses.
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Old 06-29-2019, 03:28 PM   #1855
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I know. Dems won a lot of state houses.


Do the math and the calendar.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...e_legislatures

https://ballotpedia.org/Partisan_com...e_legislatures

Redistricting takes place every 10 years after the census. The maps are mostly all drawn save for those which have been involved in litigation.


You’re welcome.
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Old 06-29-2019, 04:38 PM   #1856
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Do the math and the calendar.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...e_legislatures

https://ballotpedia.org/Partisan_com...e_legislatures

Redistricting takes place every 10 years after the census. The maps are mostly all drawn save for those which have been involved in litigation.


You’re welcome.
Jesus Christ, I'm aware that Republicans control traditionally red states and the Democrats the blue ones. It's all about purple states like Michigan and Wisconsin which the Democrats have more control of than they did during the last redistricting. The Republicans no longer have a monopoly on Gerrymandering.
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Old 06-29-2019, 07:19 PM   #1857
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Voter fraud is a myth

Every democrat candidate makes promises to illegals
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Old 06-29-2019, 09:59 PM   #1858
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Voter fraud is a mythl
So far, as every vacuous GOP allegation has proven to be just that, vacuous and readily unproven, despite the "tell a lie often and brazenly enough" attempt to insinuate that meme.
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Old 06-30-2019, 10:26 AM   #1859
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Every democrat candidate makes promises to illegals*
* dog whistle language for not treating people like animals
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Ballbusters Inc.

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Old 06-30-2019, 10:44 AM   #1860
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* dog whistle language for not treating people like animals


Just like the dog whistle of “social justice” means “kill all productive people”?
And the dog whistle of “that’s racist” means “we want to take over the country and kill or jail anyone who disagrees with us”?

Those dog whistles?
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