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Old 08-12-2015, 09:14 PM   #81
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I'm not advocating letting them die in the streets. I would hate to see that happen. As a person of faith (you are correct) I believe that we have a responsibility to help people who are in trouble. I also believe that there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy to "be helped" forever. Where charities and churches can't cover these needs (and I don't see evidence that that is the case in the US) the government needs to have programs to step in.

I don't see this as an either/or situation, however. I agree that a government that is solely or primarily focused on creating a welfare state is a government that is doomed to fail eventually. However, taking care of the poor can be and, IMHO, should be one of the functions of a successful long-term government. All this stuff needs to be balanced.
I don't really disagree with anything you wrote here. There is a slight difference between us as I believe that individuals have the responsibility to help those less fortunate, not the government, but Im also a realist, and understand what can happen if our government does not. My question to you is regarding the bold.....in your opinion, do you really think our government isn't doing enough? You think throwing more money at the problem would help at all? I find it hard to believe that you think that our government isn't doing enough, and we just need a little bit more, etc.....I could be wrong, but based on your other views, this is what it looks like to me.
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Old 08-12-2015, 09:15 PM   #82
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A good portion of the permanent-help class would fix their situation if the floor was pulled out from under them. The number, I have no clue. Fact is, we are breeding laziness when we provide endless comfort to those not willing to make any effort. This ends up being passed down generation to generation. Whose fault is it? Government, likely ramping up during the "great society" (lol).
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:29 PM   #83
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I don't really disagree with anything you wrote here. There is a slight difference between us as I believe that individuals have the responsibility to help those less fortunate, not the government, but Im also a realist, and understand what can happen if our government does not. My question to you is regarding the bold.....in your opinion, do you really think our government isn't doing enough? You think throwing more money at the problem would help at all? I find it hard to believe that you think that our government isn't doing enough, and we just need a little bit more, etc.....I could be wrong, but based on your other views, this is what it looks like to me.
The first thing to remember about me is that what I post here doesn't necessarily reflect my personal views. Sometimes I post stuff just to stimulate conversations.

Now, having said that: I think that the government generally does a crappy job of most things. The current welfare system is no exception. I think too much money is spent on dumb things that don't produce any useful results. I doubt that throwing more money at the problem will improve things at all.
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:34 PM   #84
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The first thing to remember about me is that what I post here doesn't necessarily reflect my personal views. Sometimes I post stuff just to stimulate conversations.

Now, having said that: I think that the government generally does a crappy job of most things. The current welfare system is no exception. I think too much money is spent on dumb things that don't produce any useful results. I doubt that throwing more money at the problem will improve things at all.
And now we agree, which is why Sanders, Clinton, Warren, and the rest of the wack pack will never get my vote...they don't have real world solutions, they just want to throw money at anything and everything while blaming the rich and hardworking for society's ills. They are in the grievance business....so long as people are poor and disenfranchised, they stay in business. It is in their best interest not to solve the problem. That's the essence of social justice wars/warriors....they don't actually want anything fixed...they just want to fan the flames so that their cause gets more and more attention, which generates more money, more enrollment, and round and round we go. Hamas employs a similar tactic. Not a message I can even get behind.
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:40 PM   #85
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And now we agree, which is why Sanders, Clinton, Warren, and the rest of the wack pack will never get my vote...they don't have real world solutions, they just want to throw money at anything and everything while blaming the rich and hardworking for society's ills. They are in the grievance business....so long as people are poor and disenfranchised, they stay in business. It is in their best interest not to solve the problem. That's the essence of social justice wars/warriors....they don't actually want anything fixed...they just want to fan the flames so that their cause gets more and more attention, which generates more money, more enrollment, and round and round we go. Hamas employs a similar tactic. Not a message I can even get behind.
I don't know how much time you've spent around politicians. I have spent quite a lot, at least at the state (California) level (with some exposure/experience with federal pols as well).

In my experience, politicians of all stripes are more or less the same. They have their pet grievances and they take those grievances to their constituencies and use them to get votes that help them stay in power. Politicians are, mostly, narcissistic scumbags. Anytime someone tells me that he or she admires a politician, my opinion of that person goes down.
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Old 08-12-2015, 11:03 PM   #86
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I don't know how much time you've spent around politicians. I have spent quite a lot, at least at the state (California) level (with some exposure/experience with federal pols as well).

In my experience, politicians of all stripes are more or less the same. They have their pet grievances and they take those grievances to their constituencies and use them to get votes that help them stay in power. Politicians are, mostly, narcissistic scumbags. Anytime someone tells me that he or she admires a politician, my opinion of that person goes down.
And there is nothing I disagree with here either. They are indeed scumbags. So, when a politician just BSes nothing but politics, and has done nothing with their lives apart from being in politics, then they are (to me) the bottom of the barrel scumbag. The only one upper would be someone like Hilary Clinton, that has done all the things she now hates (like sit on the board at walmart) and AFTER it served them they turned their backs to it all and start with the grievance industry (while still racking in barrels of money), they they are lying hypocritical scumbags. Because of this belief, I will agree with all of you that generally speaking (I don't know him personally, so I have to judge based on what he shows the public) Trump is by all accounts, a scumbag....however, compared to the rest of them, in my PERSONAL opinion, he's the cream of the crop of the scumbag pool. Would I prefer someone else? Yup? Do I think Trump as POTUS is of paramount importance to change the way this country sees voting, candidates, and the political party system? Absolutely. Trump winning would prove to people that the long shots DO have a chance, and they should vote for the candidate they truly believe in, and not pick from the dumb and dumber pile of the red and the blue.
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Old 08-12-2015, 11:08 PM   #87
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The first thing to remember about me is that what I post here doesn't necessarily reflect my personal views. Sometimes I post stuff just to stimulate conversations.

Now, having said that: I think that the government generally does a crappy job of most things. The current welfare system is no exception. I think too much money is spent on dumb things that don't produce any useful results. I doubt that throwing more money at the problem will improve things at all.
Likewise
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Old 08-13-2015, 12:31 AM   #88
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Mid 90s, and it was indeed a significant amount for them. So what? My wife is an attorney. Her brother is a licensed but non practicing attorney. Her mother owns a salon. Father is a chef. Their story is the same as mine (immigrants.) They went to public school. They grew up poor like most immigrants do, but they had to make due with the public school system (bayridge bk). With good parenting a child will get a good education anywhere they go. There is no need to rehash the poor decisions made by most of the american poor. Popping out babies when they have no business doing so. Getting pregnant when you're single. Im not even talking about the inner city, those trailer parks aren't St Tropez either. Billy bob and mary sue having 16 kids isn't doing this country any favors...but we can't pass judgement on anyone...oh no...that would be bad form. This isn't Zimbabwe or India...you can't just chalk up the poor problem to "just because."
You've got to realize your circumstances were wildly different from many other poor and disenfranchised in the US. Your parents already brought with them a stable environment, good minds, and lots of experience. You grew up with some of the most important things money can't buy.

While money can't buy what you had, it can reshape environments to give everyone a better chance to succeed. Why do we have to set the bar so low? So much effort is wasted for so many to get out of the bottom trenches and gain the experience others in stable families already have. It's like a logarithmic curve.



By raising the base level of financial being in this country from y=.3 to y=.8 they go from opportunity potential of 1 to 6. So call it a delta work effort of .5 That same amount of work effort applied from y=.8 to y=1.3 yields an opportunity potential of 19.5...

The point being we're setting the threshold of hard work way too low. It's very hard to incentivize billy bob to accomplish more when as far as he's noticed, working harder hasn't giving him much more opportunity, and his country and social environment doesn't give two shits about making him smarter to realize his potential (because why educate those damn dumb and poor people), so he just settles for what he knows. And his kids will do the same. But if we maybe take billy-bob to the living standard/income point where he can explore other opportunities and reap even greater benefits, well then he'll see the incentive for working harder still. Until that point it's just diminishing returns.
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Old 08-13-2015, 09:53 AM   #89
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You've got to realize your circumstances were wildly different from many other poor and disenfranchised in the US. Your parents already brought with them a stable environment, good minds, and lots of experience. You grew up with some of the most important things money can't buy.

While money can't buy what you had, it can reshape environments to give everyone a better chance to succeed. Why do we have to set the bar so low? So much effort is wasted for so many to get out of the bottom trenches and gain the experience others in stable families already have. It's like a logarithmic curve.



By raising the base level of financial being in this country from y=.3 to y=.8 they go from opportunity potential of 1 to 6. So call it a delta work effort of .5 That same amount of work effort applied from y=.8 to y=1.3 yields an opportunity potential of 19.5...

The point being we're setting the threshold of hard work way too low. It's very hard to incentivize billy bob to accomplish more when as far as he's noticed, working harder hasn't giving him much more opportunity, and his country and social environment doesn't give two shits about making him smarter to realize his potential (because why educate those damn dumb and poor people), so he just settles for what he knows. And his kids will do the same. But if we maybe take billy-bob to the living standard/income point where he can explore other opportunities and reap even greater benefits, well then he'll see the incentive for working harder still. Until that point it's just diminishing returns.
This sounds really really nice, but lets be real here...the government can't do anything about it other than throw money at something that is supposed to help people.....you know it never works. The government can't do what you want it to do, simple as that. While all your math may be correct, it is also irrelevant. The government can't take the dumb out of people, it can't make for better parents, it can't make people make smart decisions, it just cant. The only thing that works is, the government to get out of the way, and let necessity step in. People generally do what needs to be done to survive. If some dumb lazy dad realizes his kid is hungry, he'll go work that minimum wage job. He'll take those night classes when he had enough of the sh!t job. These things take time, and probably two generations to fix at this point. The government isn't going to solve this.
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Old 08-13-2015, 10:29 AM   #90
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Old 08-13-2015, 10:57 AM   #91
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This sounds really really nice, but lets be real here...the government can't do anything about it other than throw money at something that is supposed to help people.....you know it never works. The government can't do what you want it to do, simple as that. While all your math may be correct, it is also irrelevant. The government can't take the dumb out of people, it can't make for better parents, it can't make people make smart decisions, it just cant. The only thing that works is, the government to get out of the way, and let necessity step in. People generally do what needs to be done to survive. If some dumb lazy dad realizes his kid is hungry, he'll go work that minimum wage job. He'll take those night classes when he had enough of the sh!t job. These things take time, and probably two generations to fix at this point. The government isn't going to solve this.
I wouldn't disagree that throwing money at the problem isn't the way to go (believe me, I'd love to keep all of my money), but there's one thing only the government can do that could have some pretty significant impacts, and that's a change in public policy.

They can change environments, and those are far more critical to a person's intellect than their genetics. Perhaps this is where some of the disagreement may lie. Most research backs up the idea that most of us are pretty intellectually similar, what sets us apart is the environment we grow up in. That dumb thug is probably just as cognitively able as some business major frat bro, but his environment left him with only a few obvious life paths (all bad ones). The idea of a reality different from one's own is typically too abstract for most to grasp, so we fail to approach the problems with the right solution. While mistakingly believing telling is teaching. So what we need is a change in environment that will help those coming from a very different reality, and that can be done through policy instead of just money and support programs.
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Old 08-13-2015, 11:07 AM   #92
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I wouldn't disagree that throwing money at the problem isn't the way to go (believe me, I'd love to keep all of my money), but there's one thing only the government can do that could have some pretty significant impacts, and that's a change in public policy.

They can change environments, and those are far more critical to a person's intellect than their genetics. Perhaps this is where some of the disagreement may lie. Most research backs up the idea that most of us are pretty intellectually similar, what sets us apart is the environment we grow up in. That dumb thug is probably just as cognitively able as some business major frat bro, but his environment left him with only a few obvious life paths (all bad ones). The idea of a reality different from one's own is typically too abstract for most to grasp, so we fail to approach the problems with the right solution. While mistakingly believing telling is teaching. So what we need is a change in environment that will help those coming from a very different reality, and that can be done through policy instead of just money and support programs.
I don't disagree that policies need to be changed, rather than funding. The sad part is, the only policies our government changes in regards to fixing social issues is taxes, which take tax money from the upper class and nice neighborhoods and funnel them down into a black hole of waste. I agree, creating a policy of legalizing all drugs would eliminate the black market and would force Johny Gangbanger to find alternative means of income...but do you think that will force Johny to seek gainful employment, or another avenue of illegal income? Curious, just as an example, how would you solve the massive black out of wedlock birthrate and high unemployment...what specific policy would you recommend to fix those two issues?
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Old 08-13-2015, 11:08 AM   #93
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Worked in Maine.
IT worked all across America, too, before politicians realized they could breed dependence for votes.
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Old 08-13-2015, 11:28 AM   #94
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I don't disagree that policies need to be changed, rather than funding. The sad part is, the only policies our government changes in regards to fixing social issues is taxes, which take tax money from the upper class and nice neighborhoods and funnel them down into a black hole of waste. I agree, creating a policy of legalizing all drugs would eliminate the black market and would force Johny Gangbanger to find alternative means of income...but do you think that will force Johny to seek gainful employment, or another avenue of illegal income? Curious, just as an example, how would you solve the massive black out of wedlock birthrate and high unemployment...what specific policy would you recommend to fix those two issues?
The single most effective form of birth control is education, http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

That applies the world over.



There's also some good stories in the book "David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits, and the Art of Battling Giants" That makes a number of interesting and unintuitive cases about how to deal with some difficult situations. It mainly comes down to the idea of deterrence policy versus legitimacy.

It's spelled out in this video, I find it absolutely fascinating.


I can't see any socially conservative lawmakers even beginning to accept such a notion.
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Old 08-13-2015, 11:49 AM   #95
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Watched the whole thing...IMHO, a bunch of feel good hot air...a nice way of taking 20 minutes to say nothing.

First of all, the draconian punishment...proven to work, his facts are incorrect. California isn't in a vacuum. 3 Strikes doesn't work because they get new sets of baddies daily crawling over the fence. If you look at the whole country, since the inception of federal minimums, crime plummeted. The three strike rule also proves a simple fact, that a person is not interested in becoming an upstanding citizen time and time again. 3 chances in enough. The problem with the 3 strike rule is that it's 25 to life. It should simply be life. Legitimacy, another bunch of BS. Everyone in this nation, hell, even illegals, operates and is governed by the same laws. Black, white, immigrant or native. We are all playing the same game in the same sandpit. Legitimacy is a politician's word. His comments about " no one is listening to me, etc etc etc"..again, just false propaganda. My child's school is nicer than a school in newark simply because I worked hard, live in a nice area, pay $14,000 in property taxes every year, which is why our school is nice. Having said that, the sh!t school in newark gets FAR FAR more funding and has a MUCH MUCH higher per student cost. His jesus injections try to align the view of social conservatives with his narrative, IMHO, unsuccessfully. Don't know why he decided to Bring Mike Brown into this, but it really hurt his case.

In my personal opinion, the word legitimacy, as used in his presentation, is giving a nobody a podium to voice their opinion that doesn't deserve it. You want legitimacy? Earn it. Don't expect it to be handed to you. Thanks my take. I respect your opinion, but what I see in that video is a number of factual errors, and a lot of talking points that have been proven to fail, time and time again.
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Old 08-22-2015, 05:44 PM   #96
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Good points.
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Old 08-31-2015, 02:23 PM   #97
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He's now only 7% down to Clinton in Iowa
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Old 08-31-2015, 02:38 PM   #98
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Old 08-31-2015, 03:47 PM   #99
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He's now only 7% down to Clinton in Iowa

Until Joe "puttin y'all back in chains" Biden hops in with Pochahantas. Kiss that 7% goodbye! Sucks you can't vote.
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:44 AM   #100
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