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Old 06-27-2016, 11:42 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by VaderDave View Post
I'm not sure that that is a fair or accurate presumption. I deal with highly educated people all day long and I find few who I think make significantly more well informed and reasoned decisions. Just like the rest of us, most of them simply act in what they perceive is their own self interest--usually short-term self interest. Articles and op-eds I read suggest that my personal experience is not uncommon.

Again: the people voting to stay appear to be the people who have done well under the status quo. The people voting to leave are the people who appear to have done less well. They both appear to be voting for their own self-interest. If the number who voted against outnumber the number who voted in favor, then it suggests that perhaps Brexit represents the greatest good for the greatest number, despite the dubious assumption that "younger, wealthier, more educated, and more urban" somehow equals "better."
His attitude just reeks of misplaced elitism
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Old 06-27-2016, 12:36 PM   #62
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Possibly, but I think you're also equating education with intelligence. They are quite different.
I am to a degree. It is likely that those with an education will exhibit better critical thinking skills--not always obviously.


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The biggest fallacy is believing education directly translate to intelligence. Education is not a substitute for intelligence and I witnessed it first hand for over 20 years.
It is not a substitute, but it certainly compliments intelligence. It seems we are dealing with a high degree of anti-intellectualism in this country (among others). People devalue "fancy" education and dismiss professionals (tired of experts). So many, in a way, have adopted the idea that they are experts. The problem is when all of these "experts" dismiss the real experts with training and experience we begin to see the rise of these populists. Anti-intellectualism is not a good thing. And if anyone doubts the value of education or doesn't view education reform as necessary just look at the rise of Trump here and the little Trumps rising up throughout Europe.



The Brexit vote was interesting. So many factors to look at and study. Obviously it has been mentioned about the difference in socioeconomic status, education, and age. But, essentially, all of Scotland voted to stay. Majority of Britain voted to leave with the exception of some pockets. London being the largest but being a financial hub that was certainly expected.

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Old 06-27-2016, 12:48 PM   #63
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It is not a substitute, but it certainly compliments intelligence. It seems we are dealing with a high degree of anti-intellectualism in this country (among others). People devalue "fancy" education and dismiss professionals (tired of experts). So many, in a way, have adopted the idea that they are experts. The problem is when all of these "experts" dismiss the real experts with training and experience we begin to see the rise of these populists. Anti-intellectualism is not a good thing. And if anyone doubts the value of education or doesn't view education reform as necessary just look at the rise of Trump here and the little Trumps rising up throughout Europe.
It's obviously a two-edged sword, though. Although it's foolish to dismiss true intellectualism, it's also foolish to exalt false intellectualism. Too many people are ready to declare themselves "intellectuals" when they are nothing of the sort.



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The Brexit vote was interesting. So many factors to look at and study. Obviously it has been mentioned about the difference in socioeconomic status, education, and age. But, essentially, all of Scotland voted to stay. Majority of Britain voted to leave with the exception of some pockets. London being the largest but being a financial hub that was certainly expected.
I totally agree. We do ourselves a disservice when we suggest that one group of people voted a certain way because of [insert single factor here]. Were there people who voted for smart and noble reasons on both sides? Undoubtedly. Were there people who voted selfishly on both sides? Sure. Were there people who voted for dumb reasons on both sides? Of course.
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Old 06-27-2016, 01:05 PM   #64
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Majority of Britain voted to leave with the exception of some pockets. London being the largest but being a financial hub that was certainly expected.
I thought this was interesting and merited its own reply. In the US, in many states, we see a continued concentration of voters in urban areas. In CA, in particular, our voting power is concentrated in the Bay Area, LA urban area, and Silicon Valley. The LA urban area, in particular, wields significant voting power over the entire state. If one were to look at a map of the state, one would see that most of the voting power is concentrated in a relatively small area of land, with the rest of the state being, basically, under-/unrepresented in state policy.

London apparently objected to Brexit. However, it appears that, unlike CA, for example, the urban areas in England do not possess sufficient voting power to override the more suburban/rural areas of the country (yet?). It will be interested to see, in coming years, how the demographics change there.
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Old 06-27-2016, 02:28 PM   #65
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I've been in situations (notice the "s") where the people, in some cases holding two PhD's, didn't know how many quarts in a gallon, a scientist didn't know how to convert from English to metric and vice versa, misunderstood fathom for "understanding" instead of 6 ft. of water depth, and so many more that at one point being educated and self labeled expert doesn't hold water. How many so called "experts" are on the AGW wagon? How many "experts" scream "assault weapon"? The brexit is all about the Brits wanting their sovereignty back. What would we do if the people deciding our future were from Canada, and were completely unaccountable to scrutiny from the decisions they make?



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It is not a substitute, but it certainly compliments intelligence. It seems we are dealing with a high degree of anti-intellectualism in this country (among others). People devalue "fancy" education and dismiss professionals (tired of experts). So many, in a way, have adopted the idea that they are experts. The problem is when all of these "experts" dismiss the real experts with training and experience we begin to see the rise of these populists. Anti-intellectualism is not a good thing. And if anyone doubts the value of education or doesn't view education reform as necessary just look at the rise of Trump here and the little Trumps rising up throughout Europe.
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Old 06-27-2016, 02:30 PM   #66
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Just to add, for shits and giggles, ask some experts what do they celebrate first, Christmas or new years and you would be amazed how dumb people are.
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Old 06-27-2016, 03:03 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Black///M View Post
I've been in situations (notice the "s") where the people, in some cases holding two PhD's, didn't know how many quarts in a gallon, a scientist didn't know how to convert from English to metric and vice versa, misunderstood fathom for "understanding" instead of 6 ft. of water depth, and so many more that at one point being educated and self labeled expert doesn't hold water. How many so called "experts" are on the AGW wagon? How many "experts" scream "assault weapon"? The brexit is all about the Brits wanting their sovereignty back. What would we do if the people deciding our future were from Canada, and were completely unaccountable to scrutiny from the decisions they make?
At this point, holding a college degree only means that you paid for a college degree. Graduating college is not an intellectual accoplishment.
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Old 06-27-2016, 03:05 PM   #68
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I thought this was interesting and merited its own reply. In the US, in many states, we see a continued concentration of voters in urban areas. In CA, in particular, our voting power is concentrated in the Bay Area, LA urban area, and Silicon Valley. The LA urban area, in particular, wields significant voting power over the entire state. If one were to look at a map of the state, one would see that most of the voting power is concentrated in a relatively small area of land, with the rest of the state being, basically, under-/unrepresented in state policy.

London apparently objected to Brexit. However, it appears that, unlike CA, for example, the urban areas in England do not possess sufficient voting power to override the more suburban/rural areas of the country (yet?). It will be interested to see, in coming years, how the demographics change there.
You see that effect in Red vs. Blue voting maps. Looked at purely geographically, those maps look like the country's mostly Red. Adjust for population -- not so much.

Maps of the 2008 US presidential election results:

Regular map ("The whole country's practically Red, how'd Obama win?!?!"):



A cartogram, a map in which the sizes of states are rescaled according to their population ("Oh."):



Scaling the sizes of states to be proportional to their number of electoral votes:



More similar maps here.

Last edited by Rhumb; 06-27-2016 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 06-27-2016, 03:07 PM   #69
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It's even more drastic if you break it down by county instead of state.
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Old 06-27-2016, 04:00 PM   #70
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I've been in situations (notice the "s") where the people, in some cases holding two PhD's, didn't know how many quarts in a gallon, a scientist didn't know how to convert from English to metric and vice versa, misunderstood fathom for "understanding" instead of 6 ft. of water depth, and so many more that at one point being educated and self labeled expert doesn't hold water.
Einstein was highly educated and obviously extremely smart, but apparently didn't talk until he was five or something, was thought of as not particularly bright in school and really wasn't that great at the specifics of the math itself being more of a conceptualist. Yet he profoundly changed our understanding of the universe and reality. Basically, intelligence is not a linear measure but a far more complex thing. Some have a very broad intelligence of things, others are very focused into particular realms.

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How many so called "experts" are on the AGW wagon?
97% of those pointy-headed climate scientist "experts."

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How many "experts" scream "assault weapon"?
Too many.

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The brexit is all about the Brits wanting their sovereignty back. What would we do if the people deciding our future were from Canada, and were completely unaccountable to scrutiny from the decisions they make?
Which points to a fundamental problem with the EU, it's sort of a hybrid economic system somewhere between a fully representative federal system like the U.S. and a loose agglomeration of separate countries consigned to a shared geographic area (Europe). Neither quite fish nor fowl as the saying goes.

"Sovereignty" really isn't an absolute thing anyways, all countries enter into treaties, agreements, understandings, pacts, etc. with other countries, voluntarily ceding some nth degree of their absolute sovereignty. So the idea that the UK had "lost" its sovereignty and needs to get "it" back as if it were some singular binary thing seems a bit misleading. The UK will still be ceding their absolute sovereignty to any number of other countries and entities, including even us the U.S. Presumably and arguably this is done for the overall benefit of the parties involved, but obviously, many Brits feel differently in that regard.
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Old 06-27-2016, 04:03 PM   #71
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It's even more drastic if you break it down by county instead of state.
And add purple rather than a binary Red or Blue:


Whoa, I think a dropped too many tabs back in college
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Old 06-27-2016, 04:19 PM   #72
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And add purple rather than a binary Red or Blue:


Whoa, I think a dropped too many tabs back in college
Definitely looks like a Rorshach test gone bad.
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Old 06-27-2016, 04:32 PM   #73
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I've been in situations (notice the "s") where the people, in some cases holding two PhD's, didn't know how many quarts in a gallon, a scientist didn't know how to convert from English to metric and vice versa, misunderstood fathom for "understanding" instead of 6 ft. of water depth, and so many more that at one point being educated and self labeled expert doesn't hold water. How many so called "experts" are on the AGW wagon? How many "experts" scream "assault weapon"? The brexit is all about the Brits wanting their sovereignty back. What would we do if the people deciding our future were from Canada, and were completely unaccountable to scrutiny from the decisions they make?
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Just to add, for shits and giggles, ask some experts what do they celebrate first, Christmas or new years and you would be amazed how dumb people are.
I think you are confusing intelligence with knowledge. Is there a requirement for a PHD holder to have a knowledge base outside of his field of expertise? I wouldn't expect someone with a PHD in engineering to have an expert working knowledge outside of his career field. However, I would assume that the PHD engineering would, more than likely, demonstrate a higher degree of analysis and critical thinking when compared to someone without the formal education.

To me, intelligence is best measured not through a "knowledge" bank but capability and demonstration of critical thinking and analysis. Example: Ben Carson. Would you consider him intelligent? Politically, probably not. In the world of neuroscience? Absolutely!

With regards to AGW and guns, that is a perfect example. You have so-called experts and you have actual experts.

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At this point, holding a college degree only means that you paid for a college degree. Graduating college is not an intellectual accoplishment.
Sure it is--depending on the course. Most advanced STEM degrees require a measureable degree of intelligence. Are you saying majoring in quantum physics is not an intellectual accomplishment? How about statistics? Or even economics (not the simple BS that is passed around here as economics)?
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Old 06-27-2016, 05:19 PM   #74
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At this point, holding a college degree only means that you paid for a college degree. Graduating college is not an intellectual accoplishment.
As evidenced by you.

j/k
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If you want to make a statement that we all ought to get on board to fight poverty, I'm with you. If you want to say that we ought to fight income inequality I'm not with you at all. Because I don't think that the rich guy stole from the poor guy. In fact rich people don't get rich by stealing from poor people because it turns out poor people don't have money.
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Old 06-27-2016, 05:23 PM   #75
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Sure it is--depending on the course. Most advanced STEM degrees require a measureable degree of intelligence. Are you saying majoring in quantum physics is not an intellectual accomplishment? How about statistics? Or even economics (not the simple BS that is passed around here as economics)?
Glad we finally agree about Bernie Sanders.
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If you want to make a statement that we all ought to get on board to fight poverty, I'm with you. If you want to say that we ought to fight income inequality I'm not with you at all. Because I don't think that the rich guy stole from the poor guy. In fact rich people don't get rich by stealing from poor people because it turns out poor people don't have money.
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Old 06-27-2016, 05:34 PM   #76
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As evidenced by you.

j/k
Waka Waka waka!
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Old 06-27-2016, 05:38 PM   #77
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Sure it is--depending on the course. Most advanced STEM degrees require a measureable degree of intelligence. Are you saying majoring in quantum physics is not an intellectual accomplishment? How about statistics? Or even economics (not the simple BS that is passed around here as economics)?
Disagree, someone with a degree in physics is not necessarily more intelligent, or rather creditors, outside of the field of physics. You can have an advanced STEM degree and be clueless as to economic activity or social science. Again, the degree doesn't make your vote better.

Plus, what percentage of college degrees are advanced versus poli Sci and other bs?
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Old 06-27-2016, 05:51 PM   #78
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Disagree, someone with a degree in physics is not necessarily more intelligent, or rather creditors, outside of the field of physics. You can have an advanced STEM degree and be clueless as to economic activity or social science. Again, the degree doesn't make your vote better.

Plus, what percentage of college degrees are advanced versus poli Sci and other bs?
Naw, man, naw. Educated is educated. Period.
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Old 06-27-2016, 05:52 PM   #79
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"Sovereignty" really isn't an absolute thing anyways, all countries enter into treaties, agreements, understandings, pacts, etc. with other countries, voluntarily ceding some nth degree of their absolute sovereignty. So the idea that the UK had "lost" its sovereignty and needs to get "it" back as if it were some singular binary thing seems a bit misleading. The UK will still be ceding their absolute sovereignty to any number of other countries and entities, including even us the U.S. Presumably and arguably this is done for the overall benefit of the parties involved, but obviously, many Brits feel differently in that regard.
But then again, Britain will have the ability to govern themselves and make their own decisions on who they trade with, sign pacts with, what laws to legislate, etc. From what I've read, there was concern that the Eurocrats in Brussels were gaining too much power, lining their pockets handsomely, and inflicting too much bureaucracy over the countries within the EU. It sounds more than anything that poor leadership and a deviation from the original intent of the EU was a driving factor for Britain exiting the EU. Too much power given to a central authority with poor execution and policy-making can never be a good thing.

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The concept of a common European market is a good one, but its execution has been terrible. The EU as it is features many inept technocrats with limited accountability to electorates out in member states. There’s an inherent tension between countries giving up sovereignty (which many European citizens are deeply ambivalent about) and the closer integration necessary to make the project, as it was conceived, a success.

No matter: the bureaucrats have pushed on, centralizing power and making mistakes (the euro, the handling of the Greek debt crisis, and so on). These decisions left the continent weaker and southern economies in near depression. It’s down to bad leadership that debt crises rumble on, and the reforms needed to build build the foundations for euro-wide growth are ignored. Even if the UK isn’t in the euro, you can’t fault the instinct to look across the water and recoil, seeking as much sovereignty as possible by pulling out of the project that spawned such a mess.

Wiser heads may prevail. Polls are inconclusive but bookies put the odds of Brexit at just 25%. But they also put an 18% chance on the euro currency ceasing to exist by 2020. These low but non-trivial probabilities show how fragile faith is in pan-European institutions.

It’s hard to make compelling economic case for Brexit. But then again, the history of the EU is littered with terrible economic decisions made in the name of lofty political aspirations. Are Europeans worse off for it? Some are, and Brits will probably be too if they vote for Brexit, at least in the short term. EU policymakers often put politics before economics—so can British voters.
http://qz.com/678183/brexit-is-a-bad...-union-itself/

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Anti-EU sentiment is not confined to Britain. In 10 EU countries recently polled by the Pew Research Center, the union is viewed unfavorably by roughly one in two citizens. A median of 42 percent want powers returned to national governments, versus 19 percent who want more transferred to the EU. Today, the union is less popular in France than it is in Britain. An election is approaching in Spain, as is a referendum on constitutional reform in Italy. The shock of Brexit is sure to reverberate.

It’s clear that the dangers in all this outweigh the opportunities -- yet there are opportunities nonetheless, and they should be seized. Whatever posture the EU adopts toward its former partner, it should recognize the force of rising anti-EU sentiment elsewhere in the union and act to stanch it. Maybe Brexit will provide the necessary jolt. Europe’s leaders have long preferred to ignore such discontent rather than acknowledge it -- much less accommodate it.

Britain’s vote for exit shows the great cost of such complacency. To minimize the harm to its own interests, and to stop the next such vote before it happens, Europe needs to change.
http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articl...urope-ipta06ur
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If you want to make a statement that we all ought to get on board to fight poverty, I'm with you. If you want to say that we ought to fight income inequality I'm not with you at all. Because I don't think that the rich guy stole from the poor guy. In fact rich people don't get rich by stealing from poor people because it turns out poor people don't have money.
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Old 06-27-2016, 05:54 PM   #80
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Disagree, someone with a degree in physics is not necessarily more intelligent, or rather creditors, outside of the field of physics. You can have an advanced STEM degree and be clueless as to economic activity or social science. Again, the degree doesn't make your vote better. A complete idiot has the right to vote. Yet he needs to be prepared to deal with the outcome of his choices. And, much of the Brexit vote many are wanting another vote due to many of the stay voters didn't turn out. It is being reported they were assured the leave vote didn't win. Tough ****, you had the opportunity to turn out and didnt. Deal with the consequences of your decision.

Plus, what percentage of college degrees are advanced versus poli Sci and other bs?
I didn't say that the vote of someone with an education matters more. That policy has dangerous implications in which we already dealt with in the past. And I mentioned that someone with a STEM can be ignorant with regards to economics or politics. However, I said, I think the possibility is greater that they will approach such topics with better skills and developing a better understanding.

I don't know the percentage between stem vs others. I imagine it isn't good when comparing citizens and foreign students. Perhaps that is an area where education reform can benefit. Provide incentives for students to pursue an education in the STEM fields.

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