In case you haven't heard, Alabama has essentially banned abortions. - Page 5 - E46Fanatics E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Political Talk

Political Talk
You may discuss anything regarding politics in this forum ONLY. If you cannot respect others opinions, your access to this forum will be removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-19-2019, 09:29 AM   #81
ti317
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 932
My Ride: 02 330ci coupe 5 spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
Fairness doesn’t apply at all. It’s not fair to her that he can bang her and then disappear, leaving her to deal with the consequences on her own because his biologic role is complete. Likewise it’s not fair to him that pregnancy happens within her body and it’s a tenet of our society that a person (mostly) gets to decide what happens with their own body.



She may have 99.9999% of the control over pregnancy after conception, but he can exercise his control over pregnancy by not having sex with her.


So, if not fairness, accountability for him but not for her? You are trying to argue about the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin.
If the issue is her control over her body, then she has no standing to enslave a man for 18 years and compel him to lose control over his body (labor).
It is disingenuous to imply that she has rights and autonomy that a man does not.
__________________
The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get any worse every time Congress meets. - Will Rogers
ti317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2019, 11:34 AM   #82
Xcelratr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal - 310
Posts: 991
My Ride: 04 330Ci ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by ti317 View Post
So, if not fairness, accountability for him but not for her? You are trying to argue about the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin.
If the issue is her control over her body, then she has no standing to enslave a man for 18 years and compel him to lose control over his body (labor).
It is disingenuous to imply that she has rights and autonomy that a man does not.
There's more to accountability than money. You could say the same about a rape victim that found abortion morally unacceptable but will put the baby up for adoption. She has to "suffer" through 9 months of pregnancy and the trauma of delivery and he's not held biologically accountable at all? What a travesty of fairness that is!

She absolutely has standing to expect him to share in the financial responsibility of raising a child because he shared in the act that created the child. If he doesn't want to pay for a kid, all he has to do is not make a kid.

I'm not "implying" she has rights and autonomy that he does not. I'm stating it outright because it's true. He has rights and autonomy over his sperm, she does not. She has rights and autonomy over her eggs and uterus, he does not. Once they're combined, it so happens that they reside in her, so she has rights and autonomy that he does not. Once the child is born, they revert to (in principle) equal partners. He could hypothetically enslave her for 18 years and compel her to lose control over her body (labor) if she happens to be the earner.
__________________
----------------------------------------------
Quote:
We will not tolerate intolerance.
----------------------------------------------
Xcelratr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2019, 12:50 PM   #83
ti317
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 932
My Ride: 02 330ci coupe 5 spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
There's more to accountability than money. You could say the same about a rape victim that found abortion morally unacceptable but will put the baby up for adoption. She has to "suffer" through 9 months of pregnancy and the trauma of delivery and he's not held biologically accountable at all? What a travesty of fairness that is!



She absolutely has standing to expect him to share in the financial responsibility of raising a child because he shared in the act that created the child. If he doesn't want to pay for a kid, all he has to do is not make a kid.



I'm not "implying" she has rights and autonomy that he does not. I'm stating it outright because it's true. He has rights and autonomy over his sperm, she does not. She has rights and autonomy over her eggs and uterus, he does not. Once they're combined, it so happens that they reside in her, so she has rights and autonomy that he does not. Once the child is born, they revert to (in principle) equal partners. He could hypothetically enslave her for 18 years and compel her to lose control over her body (labor) if she happens to be the earner.


Nothing in my posts or opinions about rape or other cited exceptions. Or even pro or con this particular law. I just used this as a starting point to raise the issue of personal responsibility and consistency.

I am not anti abortion in all instances but as a person who tried to kill someone (with legal justification), I think we need to stop dehumanizing fetuses. Once we do that, we can have a serious and honest debate as to when it is acceptable to kill them.

Once we decide who has the only say in continuation of a pregnancy, we can have an honest debate about who should live with the consequences.
__________________
The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get any worse every time Congress meets. - Will Rogers
ti317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2019, 12:58 PM   #84
Rhumb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 146
My Ride: 2001 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by ti317 View Post
You either missed it or are ignoring the obvious. Holding up RvW as a part of the Constitution. I was merely pointing out that there have been some horrendous SCOTUS rulings before.
I was referring primarily to the Constitutional process (judiciary, SCOTUS and its rulings), as imperfect as it might be, holding sway over AL state law. While it's obviously resulted in some clunker rulings, it's still the system we've got.
Rhumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2019, 02:49 PM   #85
Stankia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Anywhere in an hour
Posts: 63
My Ride: Germans
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
So that's your stance? If the baby is due on Friday, they can decide to have an abortion on Thursday and you're fine with that?
Personally? No, I'm against abortion at any stage.
__________________
Stankia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2019, 08:44 PM   #86
ti317
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 932
My Ride: 02 330ci coupe 5 spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
Personally? No, I'm against abortion at any stage.


How do you feel about slavery? Or is that a matter between the plantation owner and his land manager?
__________________
The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get any worse every time Congress meets. - Will Rogers
ti317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2019, 08:50 PM   #87
ti317
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 932
My Ride: 02 330ci coupe 5 spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
I was referring primarily to the Constitutional process (judiciary, SCOTUS and its rulings), as imperfect as it might be, holding sway over AL state law. While it's obviously resulted in some clunker rulings, it's still the system we've got.


You do know that the idea of federal primacy over states is a construct that applies only to when laws conflict? It seems that AL is using this law as a way to bootstrap their way into a hearing by SCOTUS.

It also seems like a dumb idea. If they really wanted to effect change and even overturn Roe, they should have taken incremental steps. This law is so sweeping and the penalties so draconian that is seems destined to be stricken.

They should have started with “common sense regulations on the practice of abortion” then they could move up to “comprehensive abortion reform”.
__________________
The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get any worse every time Congress meets. - Will Rogers
ti317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2019, 02:15 AM   #88
Stankia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Anywhere in an hour
Posts: 63
My Ride: Germans
Quote:
Originally Posted by ti317 View Post
How do you feel about slavery? Or is that a matter between the plantation owner and his land manager?
I feel abandoning slavery was a huge mistake, the productivity plummeted.
__________________

Last edited by Stankia; 05-20-2019 at 02:15 AM.
Stankia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2019, 08:30 AM   #89
Xcelratr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal - 310
Posts: 991
My Ride: 04 330Ci ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by ti317 View Post
Nothing in my posts or opinions about rape or other cited exceptions. Or even pro or con this particular law. I just used this as a starting point to raise the issue of personal responsibility and consistency.

I am not anti abortion in all instances but as a person who tried to kill someone (with legal justification), I think we need to stop dehumanizing fetuses. Once we do that, we can have a serious and honest debate as to when it is acceptable to kill them.
My first post in this thread said “In before this devolves into everything except a discussion about how to determine as objectively as possible when an organism becomes a human life under the law.”

Abortion arguments generally jump right past the question of when a human life begins and go ”murder” and “choice” terminology right away. Then the screaming starts.

You say we need to stop dehumanizing. Others say we need to stop humanizing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ti317 View Post
Once we decide who has the only say in continuation of a pregnancy, we can have an honest debate about who should live with the consequences.
Biology and our principle that people control their own body already determine who has the only say in continuation of a pregnancy. Biology also decided who lives with the biologic consequences of continuing a pregnancy.

We’ve determined that both parents should live with the consequences because both parents had equal say in the creation of the pregnancy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
Personally? No, I'm against abortion at any stage.
So why is it legal abortion 1 minute before the delivery but becomes murder 1 minute after delivery?
__________________
----------------------------------------------
Quote:
We will not tolerate intolerance.
----------------------------------------------
Xcelratr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2019, 07:25 AM   #90
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In your gf's front hole
Posts: 356
My Ride: Longboard
Send a message via ICQ to Act of God Send a message via AIM to Act of God Send a message via Yahoo to Act of God
that'll learn em!

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/20...ghts-graffiti/
Delaware County Church Vandalized With Abortion Rights Graffiti
__________________
“The left does not win its battles in debate. It doesn’t have to. In the twenty-first century, media is everything. The left wins because it controls the narrative. The narrative is controlled by the media. The left is the media. Narrative is everything,” - Andrew Breitbart
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2019, 09:54 AM   #91
Xcelratr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal - 310
Posts: 991
My Ride: 04 330Ci ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
that'll learn em!

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/20...ghts-graffiti/
Delaware County Church Vandalized With Abortion Rights Graffiti
https://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1025731
__________________
----------------------------------------------
Quote:
We will not tolerate intolerance.
----------------------------------------------
Xcelratr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2019, 02:58 PM   #92
Stankia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Anywhere in an hour
Posts: 63
My Ride: Germans
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
So why is it legal abortion 1 minute before the delivery but becomes murder 1 minute after delivery?
Well because once you're born you become a person, before that you're just a multicellular organism, just like mold.

Where do you draw the line and why?
__________________
Stankia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2019, 03:16 PM   #93
Xcelratr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal - 310
Posts: 991
My Ride: 04 330Ci ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
Well because once you're born you become a person, before that you're just a multicellular organism, just like mold.

Where do you draw the line and why?
Where and why is the entire point of the discussion.

You sound pretty certain about your where. What's your reasoning for why?
__________________
----------------------------------------------
Quote:
We will not tolerate intolerance.
----------------------------------------------
Xcelratr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2019, 03:27 PM   #94
Stankia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Anywhere in an hour
Posts: 63
My Ride: Germans
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
Where and why is the entire point of the discussion.

You sound pretty certain about your where. What's your reasoning for why?
I just explained it to you. You are not a person until you're born. It's as clear cut as it can be.
__________________
Stankia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2019, 03:28 PM   #95
Stankia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Anywhere in an hour
Posts: 63
My Ride: Germans
__________________
Stankia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2019, 08:42 PM   #96
ti317
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 932
My Ride: 02 330ci coupe 5 spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
I just explained it to you. You are not a person until you're born. It's as clear cut as it can be.


Born how? Caesarean? Natural birth?
What defines personhood?
Remember that until 1879, native Americans were not legally considered persons.

I don’t have the certitude that comes with ignorance and arrogance so I freely admit I don’t know exactly when a fetus becomes a person. Rather than take a firm stand on slippery ground, I would rather admit the personhood of the child in the womb and prescribe the times and methods of killing said children.
__________________
The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get any worse every time Congress meets. - Will Rogers
ti317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2019, 08:45 PM   #97
ti317
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 932
My Ride: 02 330ci coupe 5 spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post


They hate us so much but keep on coming.
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pres...nal-state.html
__________________
The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get any worse every time Congress meets. - Will Rogers
ti317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2019, 09:15 PM   #98
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In your gf's front hole
Posts: 356
My Ride: Longboard
Send a message via ICQ to Act of God Send a message via AIM to Act of God Send a message via Yahoo to Act of God
What blame if any, does the left possess for This? They went totally nuts about abortion this year and pretty much spurred all this nonsense.

Also, polling now shows a majority of Americans oppose abortio morally. Pretty shocking to me actually.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...y-wrong-gallup

Did they push too far? I feel like bill Clinton had it right, legal safe and rare
__________________
“The left does not win its battles in debate. It doesn’t have to. In the twenty-first century, media is everything. The left wins because it controls the narrative. The narrative is controlled by the media. The left is the media. Narrative is everything,” - Andrew Breitbart

Last edited by Act of God; 05-31-2019 at 09:16 PM.
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2019, 10:50 PM   #99
Stankia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Anywhere in an hour
Posts: 63
My Ride: Germans
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
What blame if any, does the left possess for This?
I bet that's how you start each day
__________________
Stankia is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is ON


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
`captions v. XZIBIT` pakman3 General Off-Topic 68 03-16-2009 07:28 PM
In case you haven't heard... Peake Tools are NOT OBDII tools [email protected] General E46 Forum 27 03-09-2009 07:13 PM
Anyone heard of Hollywood Hills in Woodinville punjabigunda881 Pacific Northwest 1 05-31-2008 11:10 AM
case results for my NY state speeding tickets summit425 General Off-Topic 20 04-05-2008 03:09 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
(c) 1999 - VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.