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Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning
Talk about driveline improvements, NA tuning and DME tuning your E46 BMW here. This includes diffs, intakes, exhausts, chips, software and OBD tuning.

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Old 06-04-2017, 08:05 PM   #261
rkneeshaw
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Originally Posted by Davconelectric View Post
I think if you drive on the street you'll never have an issue. For track, just go a different engine.
Thanks for all the help

Yeah, that's the answer, just get a different engine....

At least until this point there's been some very constructive discussion and debate on the root cause of the oil pump issue.
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Old 06-04-2017, 09:16 PM   #262
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You have a balanced crank, $1500aud total for machining (deck, bore, hone, crank grind, crank balance, line hone) and assembly would never cover full rotating assembly balance and blue printing.

Not quite sure if you are trolling or serious, but I have seen that another person did find their bolts lose also on the GSR, they wired the screws.
Oh hey Dave, Hope things are going well for you.

Re balance, you are most likely correct, I just assumed engine balance ment entire engine.
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Old 06-05-2017, 01:15 AM   #263
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Oh hey Dave, Hope things are going well for you.

Re balance, you are most likely correct, I just assumed engine balance ment entire engine.
I am well thanks Davcon.

Give the engine shop a call. They had ticked the box for engine balancing and blue printing, but only charged you for gapping the rings, checking bearing clearances and general assembly. As you are aware, I was also going to use the same place, but after discussing the tolerances I wanted, and discussions relating back to your engine, I decided to go else where for machining, and to do the assembly etc myself. It is a shame you didn't take me up on the offer at the time to do the assembly on your engine, I am very happy with my final result on specs for mine, and also know exactly what has and hasn't been done.


Back on topic.....

Very interested to see results on oil pump chain tensioner, I had started looking at potential tensioner a while back. Also, as per post on previous page of this thread, there is an oil channel in the block under the timing case that is blocked by a grub screw. I was considering tapping that supply for a hydraulic chain tensioner.
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Old 06-06-2017, 11:51 AM   #264
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I was researching chain tensioners and supposedly the S50 and S52 came with chain tensioners from the factory in euro cars.

Guy named Boris who may be local to me rebuilt his S52 powered 8 second E30 with a tensioner several years ago. He's still running 8s, so I reached out to him to see if the tensioner stopped his oil pump woes.

I will let you know if I hear back.
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Old 06-06-2017, 09:57 PM   #265
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Thanks for all the help

Yeah, that's the answer, just get a different engine....

At least until this point there's been some very constructive discussion and debate on the root cause of the oil pump issue.

*VAC bolt and sprocket with tie wire
*4 bolt oil pump
*ATI Dampner
*Chain tensioner
*Full drysump/oilpump

These have all been talked about and the first 4 dont solve the issue.
I beleive Davew is in the process of fitting a full custom drysump and pump setup, but that is an expensive exercise if you only plan on running a stock engine. The other option would be to do what i did and use the ATI dampner with 4 bolt oil pump, tie wire the bolts and check on a regular basis.... say every couple of track days or so. The only reason I checked mine was due to an annoying sump gasket oil leak. Dropping the front subframe to remove the sump isnt a hard job, but is a crap job.

What do you currently have installed? And have you had many issues with street/daily driving and track days?

Im sorry you feel that a different engine for track use is a useless idea, FYI my "track built engine" owes me over 10K and thats without the charger, clutch and tune. I could have had a stock 6L LS installed and cert for 12K,
Just something to think about.
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:07 PM   #266
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I honestly think the addition of a chain tensioner would be well worth a try, unfortunately I have gone a different route, and another person who was interested in trialling it has decided on external oil pump/wet sump, otherwise I would have been more than willing to rig something up. We had actually spent considerable time on selection of a tensioner and had two candidates we thought could work well, and be located close to oil pressure.
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:54 PM   #267
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Definetly worth a shot, along with the other "fixes". Doing no research on either the chain tensioner idea or an s50 that comes standard with a tensioner, I recall being told that the s50 e36M3 also has issues with the opn coming loose, tho not as common as the m54. Maybe due to the steel block? I have no idea
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Old 06-07-2017, 12:56 AM   #268
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At the end of the day, I think the oil pump was designed to do 6,500rpm, and no more. If you are going to push that limit, or hang on high rpm, I think you are going to have to try a combination of "fixes".

I want to push the rpm limit of my engine, and when I pulled it down I had found:

Teeth chipped off crank sprocket
Stretched chain
Bent oil pump shaft (enough for "notchy rotation)

I was running 7,200 rpm, ATI dampener (group buy version), welded nut (tig welded), IWIS chain, clutched alternator pulley, and the S54 chain tensioner for cams.

Everything in my circumstance pointed to the chain causing all the damage.

I had one of davcons crank sprockets here, I'm not sure if it was from his old grenaded engine from losing the opn, or from his replacement engine, but that also was missing the tops of the teeth on the crank sprocket.

I don't know if this is typical in other cases or just unique to what I have personally seen. If you sucked a bit of that crank sprocket into the pump at rpm, I would say that would cause catastrophic pump failure.
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Old 06-07-2017, 12:59 AM   #269
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Might be good to also add magnetic sump plug to the list lol
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Old 06-07-2017, 10:28 AM   #270
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Which tensioners did you look at ? I was about to go and pull some chain tensioners off my v8 volvo engine and see if I could rig up something
Thats the tensioner off volvo v8 https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...96935889602733
I would drill and tread 2 holes near that oil pump chain and bolt it next to the chain , then I would tap another hole for the slider piece to go in so the chain would glide on it and to overkill I would make an oil nozzle squirting oil right on the tensioner, how would I do it? Right now I got this crazy Idea is to tap 1/8 copper tube into the oil block I have installed , then tap timing cover and run that tube through it ( how would I seal that hole? JB weld , Brass brazing , rtv or tread the hole with adapters and all that.

Last edited by cwarel; 06-07-2017 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:49 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Davconelectric View Post
What do you currently have installed? And have you had many issues with street/daily driving and track days?

Im sorry you feel that a different engine for track use is a useless idea, FYI my "track built engine" owes me over 10K and thats without the charger, clutch and tune. I could have had a stock 6L LS installed and cert for 12K,
Just something to think about.
I didn't mean to imply a different engine for track use is a useless idea, just that I would have guessed that would be a foregone assumption that it was a possible option for some but not all. I am sure many racing organizations put rules on engine swaps and power output etc and just using a different engine isn't always possible for everyone. With that logic another option is to choose a different car entirely

I've got the ATI damper installed and for a time used the S54 timing chain tensioner. Car is street driven with some track days thrown in, 128k miles on the clock. I haven't opened the oil pan to check the OPN yet, its still sealed from the factory. I'm a little afraid that I need to check it sooner than later now. I thought I was safe with the ATI. I had planned to add the 4-bolt pump once I finally did open it up...

I hope wiring up the 4-bolts will keep things in place.

Putting a tensioner on the oil pump chain is an interesting idea.
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Old 06-07-2017, 05:07 PM   #272
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Definetly worth a shot, along with the other "fixes". Doing no research on either the chain tensioner idea or an s50 that comes standard with a tensioner, I recall being told that the s50 e36M3 also has issues with the opn coming loose, tho not as common as the m54. Maybe due to the steel block? I have no idea
No such animal was ever installed on US e36 M3s... US M3s are the only version of the M3 that had this oil pump issue as no Euro versions failed from oil pump issues, regardless of the way they were driven.

"It is weird the yanks seem to have a lot more problems. Wonder if they use engine flushes more, or the oil is different. As some engine flushes are fairly harsh, and ive always wondered about the cam bolt issue and this. See if it gets in and wrecks the compound designed to keep them in place (loctite etc)."

That's a comment from one of many threads all over google that I found while researching this. Euro guys don't have the same issues.

I'm honestly thinking the fact that there is no tensioner is the extreme, Modulus of Elasticity breaching force that's required to completely shear the shaft.

It is EASILY possible that it's completely wrecking the cog with death wobble. With that chain flopping around at 8000rpm, wiggling the gear around, it's easily possible for it to back a nut off, regardless of which direction it's threaded, hence the reverse thread not working, the bolts not staying bolted in, red thread locker not being any kind of useful, wired nuts not staying in...

There is a factory tensioner available for the S50 engines...

As I said, i reached out to Boris with the e30... It looks like the Euro tensioner cured his problems, but I haven't heard anything from him yet.

I have no clue why BMW would remove the chain tensioner for any of the models the US got... like why even do that? was saving a buck so serious (on your extremely expensive sports model) that you basically made its engine out of glass?

Silly design decision.

Last edited by avantgarde; 06-07-2017 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 06-07-2017, 05:17 PM   #273
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Image of BMW factory tensioner installed on Euro S50



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Old 06-07-2017, 11:59 PM   #274
Davconelectric
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Which tensioners did you look at ? I was about to go and pull some chain tensioners off my v8 volvo engine and see if I could rig up something
Thats the tensioner off volvo v8 https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...96935889602733
I would drill and tread 2 holes near that oil pump chain and bolt it next to the chain , then I would tap another hole for the slider piece to go in so the chain would glide on it and to overkill I would make an oil nozzle squirting oil right on the tensioner, how would I do it? Right now I got this crazy Idea is to tap 1/8 copper tube into the oil block I have installed , then tap timing cover and run that tube through it ( how would I seal that hole? JB weld , Brass brazing , rtv or tread the hole with adapters and all that.
I dont think youll need to squirt additional oil on the chain. The s50 tensioner uses just a basic spring pressure to stop the chain slap and if that does the job, there is no point in complicating things with extra oil lines and a such. My track season is over, being winter and all so im happy to give it a crack.
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Old 06-08-2017, 12:16 AM   #275
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Has anybody tried adding a plate that could be removed to check the nut?
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Old 06-08-2017, 12:24 AM   #276
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I dont think youll need to squirt additional oil on the chain. The s50 tensioner uses just a basic spring pressure to stop the chain slap and if that does the job, there is no point in complicating things with extra oil lines and a such. My track season is over, being winter and all so im happy to give it a crack.
Please don't. It will just be another job you stuff up and then we will get another 6-12 months of "should have gone LS" or "should have gone M3".
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Old 06-08-2017, 02:29 AM   #277
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Please don't. It will just be another job you stuff up and then we will get another 6-12 months of "should have gone LS" or "should have gone M3".
well dave, there is a good reason people buy m3s
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Old 06-08-2017, 04:16 PM   #278
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Please don't. It will just be another job you stuff up and then we will get another 6-12 months of "should have gone LS" or "should have gone M3".
How about just to figure all these little things that engineers at bmw did on purpose. Im pretty sure you all know how car companies work now
Rules of Car's company globally
1) Use the cheapest sh** they can get
2) You should put a washer there ? Why cuz why not ? nah bro its extra 10 cents imagine 100k cars x 10 cents thats a lot of money. Fck the people
3) We gotta figure out a way so the cars dont last long! Hows is that? Over engineer the hell out of the engine so with all these complexities the sht will kaboom itself in 50k miles or 2 years.

So this is basically how car companies think right now EVERY ONE OF THEM TRUST ME )) especially all american made crap

So instead of going LS or M3 I think its finally time where we can come up with something that will fix the issues , since these cars and engines are cheap right now.
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:10 PM   #279
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Honestly looking at this chain tensioner , that spring doesnt look too strong , maybe with more pressure more vibrations will be reduced
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:22 PM   #280
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Honestly looking at this chain tensioner , that spring doesnt look too strong , maybe with more pressure more vibrations will be reduced
That's why we had originally looked at hydraulic tensioners, and tapping the oil feed off the block behind the timing case. I will post up the ones we had considered when I have time to find them.
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