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Old 08-12-2015, 02:37 PM   #61
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So what? I think you seem quite disconnected between your experiences and those of others.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:38 PM   #62
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So what? I think you seem quite disconnected between your experiences and those of others.
Nope, I think you just seem REALLY hesitant to put blame where it belongs, because it SEEMS to be the cruel thing to do. Patting people on the back often makes one feel better, even if the end result is worse.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:39 PM   #63
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it took my father many years until he was able to not only find residency, but also to get his english up to snuff. As for my mother, she was able to do an llm program at fordham university.
k.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:45 PM   #64
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So what? I think you seem quite disconnected between your experiences and those of others.
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If a bunch of freshly imported immigrants were able to make it, what's everyone else's excuse?
Not having two parents with high earning, professional backgrounds?

Born on third base, thinks he hit a triple.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:47 PM   #65
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Nope, I think you just seem REALLY hesitant to put blame where it belongs, because it SEEMS to be the cruel thing to do. Patting people on the back often makes one feel better, even if the end result is worse.
Why does it make any practical sense to assign blame to anyone? The problem exists. There should be programs that help to alleviate the problem. The programs should be blame-neutral--fix the problem instead of punishing the person.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:48 PM   #66
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Not having two parents with high earning, professional backgrounds?

Born on third base, thinks he hit a triple.
High earning where? They weren't high earning in Russia, and for around 8 years, they weren't high earning here either. After many MANY years of hard work, yes they started to make good money, but they came here poor, with nothing, so your point makes zero sense. Not many in Russia were doctors or lawyers for the simple reason that there was no reward for working so hard, you still lived in government housing and got paid peanuts. It was much easier to be a bus driver.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:50 PM   #67
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Nope, I think you just seem REALLY hesitant to put blame where it belongs, because it SEEMS to be the cruel thing to do. Patting people on the back often makes one feel better, even if the end result is worse.
Not really. You just seem to refuse that people are disadvantaged in the us. So you write it off as lazy and collecting government cheese. Government cheese doesn't make life significantly better. Which if it did you should ask why crime is so relevant in poor neighborhoods. If entitlements allow a life of luxury why do people resort to crime and think the only way to get ahead is to sell drugs and steal?
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:52 PM   #68
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Why does it make any practical sense to assign blame to anyone? The problem exists. There should be programs that help to alleviate the problem. The programs should be blame-neutral--fix the problem instead of punishing the person.
Part of the problem is to identify the cause. You can't fix a problem that continues to happen. You can't fix the problem of poor people procreating without cutting off help (funding) so that people understand that if they have a baby, there is no check coming their way. You can't fix single parent problems without addressing the culture that propagates the issue. You can't fix deadbeat idiot parents that don't sit on top of their kids' heads to make sure they do their homework and learn something. None of this can be fixed by a government. I find it really odd, that some very intelligent people here, yourself included, really believe that a government (any government, forget party lines) can fix these problems. I would think that you guys realize by now (war on poverty, drugs, obesity, whatever) does nothing more than siphon and bleed money/resources from everywhere, while doing absolutely nothing but multiply the problem, not to mention, line some serious pockets and some serious industries.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:56 PM   #69
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Why does it make any practical sense to assign blame to anyone? The problem exists. There should be programs that help to alleviate the problem. The programs should be blame-neutral--fix the problem instead of punishing the person.
Feels before reals!

Its part of the overall Just World fallacy--if people are poor they are somehow deserving of it. It's always solely a product of their own mistakes.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:59 PM   #70
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Not really. You just seem to refuse that people are disadvantaged in the us. So you write it off as lazy and collecting government cheese. Government cheese doesn't make life significantly better. Which if it did you should ask why crime is so relevant in poor neighborhoods. If entitlements allow a life of luxury why do people resort to crime and think the only way to get ahead is to sell drugs and steal?
Lets take the issues one at a time.

Drug Sales....

This isn't Mexico or Peru, where the poor coca farmer is planting coke instead of corn because it's easier for him to feed his kids. That's a legit argument. In the US, drug sales are for big money. Simple as that.

Stealing....generally, petty larceny is to fuel a drug habit. That is a problem but money isn't the solution. Legalizing drugs is.

Government cheese...nowhere did I say that government cheese is luxurious. I said that it makes life easier when compared to grinding 2 low paying jobs while attending night school. To this day, I remember my parents looking like they died 10 years prior because of the work/studying they were doing. It's extremely difficult, and collecting cheese while sitting in your government apartment is easier, and so people are ok with that. Yes there are people that aren't at the top. I know you know that there will ALWAYS be people at the bottom, especially in a free society. Some people just dont want to grind and sweat to claw their way up. It isn't easy, and the immigrants that do grind and sweat don't make it any easier for them, but it's something that needs to be done to succeed. Crime in poor areas is always after-the-fact. Those teenaged gangbangers in chicago...ask yourself, why were they brought into this world in the first place?
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:00 PM   #71
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Feels before reals!

Its part of the overall Just World fallacy--if people are poor they are somehow deserving of it. It's always solely a product of their own mistakes.
Not 100% of the time, but generally speaking, in the United States, a majority of cases is indeed because of poor decisions made by the individual...unless you'd like to blame Bush, or Nissan, or a carwash.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:23 PM   #72
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Not 100% of the time, but generally speaking, in the United States, a majority of cases is indeed because of poor decisions made by the individual...unless you'd like to blame Bush, or Nissan, or a carwash.

Isn't the number one cause of bankruptcy medical bills? I'd love to see a citation on your statement
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:24 PM   #73
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Isn't the number one cause of bankruptcy medical bills? I'd love to see a citation on your statement
AOG took care of that many many many times. Regardless, are you stating that the majority of poor in this country filed for bankruptcy?
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:27 PM   #74
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AOG took care of that many many many times. Regardless, are you stating that the majority of poor in this country filed for bankruptcy?

No the majority is just lazy and popping out kids and getting free phones like you say.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:33 PM   #75
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Well, like him or not, Carson comes from the poor poor inner city, and he has a similar view on the issue as I do....starts at 3:15
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/..._medium=social
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Old 08-12-2015, 05:02 PM   #76
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Part of the problem is to identify the cause. You can't fix a problem that continues to happen. You can't fix the problem of poor people procreating without cutting off help (funding) so that people understand that if they have a baby, there is no check coming their way. You can't fix single parent problems without addressing the culture that propagates the issue. You can't fix deadbeat idiot parents that don't sit on top of their kids' heads to make sure they do their homework and learn something. None of this can be fixed by a government. I find it really odd, that some very intelligent people here, yourself included, really believe that a government (any government, forget party lines) can fix these problems. I would think that you guys realize by now (war on poverty, drugs, obesity, whatever) does nothing more than siphon and bleed money/resources from everywhere, while doing absolutely nothing but multiply the problem, not to mention, line some serious pockets and some serious industries.
Actually, my viewpoint comes from almost the opposite end of the spectrum. I have no faith in government's ability to fix any problem. IMHO, government is incompetent in almost every way that matters, long-term. However, I also recognize that there's a certain subset of the population that is, quite frankly, unable and/or unwilling to take care of themselves. For that subset of the population, there are no programs that will create adequate incentives to improve their lots in life. For people like that, you can either 1) let them die on the streets or 2) subsidize their crappy lives and hope they don't get too angry and riot and burn a bunch of expensive stuff to the ground.

So, contrary to what you're suggesting, I'm merely advocating that we keep the simmering to as low a level as possible, understanding that we will always have the poor with us. It's a waste of time to blame them, although it probably feels good for some people.
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Old 08-12-2015, 05:10 PM   #77
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Actually, my viewpoint comes from almost the opposite end of the spectrum. I have no faith in government's ability to fix any problem. IMHO, government is incompetent in almost every way that matters, long-term. However, I also recognize that there's a certain subset of the population that is, quite frankly, unable and/or unwilling to take care of themselves. For that subset of the population, there are no programs that will create adequate incentives to improve their lots in life. For people like that, you can either 1) let them die on the streets or 2) subsidize their crappy lives and hope they don't get too angry and riot and burn a bunch of expensive stuff to the ground.

So, contrary to what you're suggesting, I'm merely advocating that we keep the simmering to as low a level as possible, understanding that we will always have the poor with us. It's a waste of time to blame them, although it probably feels good for some people.
As a man of your spiritual belief, I find it odd that you think the bold above is reality. I came from a place where the poor did what they had to do to crawl their way up, because no one likes to live in sh!t. Having said that, as stated, ignoring what I said, and taking only what you said...you are sort of admitting that those people are destined to remain in the gutter, so it's in our best interest to keep them in bare minimums so that they stop burning sh!t down and robbing the rest of us successful people....IMHO, that's what we are doing (although I think we give too much)...we feed them, house them, provide them with medicine, utilities, etc. But why would we respect a man that's running for president based on helping those people? How about someone fighting for a small business? How about someone that's fighting for mom and pop stores, to bring back manufacturing jobs, etc? Like I said, our opinions don't seem to be far apart, but it *appears* that we value different things....eventhough your statements don't seem to paint you in that light. Remember, I fully support individuals to be caring, compassionate, and charitable....however, as a country, we need to be strong, and selfish FIRST, and charitable second.
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Old 08-12-2015, 06:00 PM   #78
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As a man of your spiritual belief, I find it odd that you think the bold above is reality. I came from a place where the poor did what they had to do to crawl their way up, because no one likes to live in sh!t. Having said that, as stated, ignoring what I said, and taking only what you said...you are sort of admitting that those people are destined to remain in the gutter, so it's in our best interest to keep them in bare minimums so that they stop burning sh!t down and robbing the rest of us successful people....IMHO, that's what we are doing (although I think we give too much)...we feed them, house them, provide them with medicine, utilities, etc. But why would we respect a man that's running for president based on helping those people? How about someone fighting for a small business? How about someone that's fighting for mom and pop stores, to bring back manufacturing jobs, etc? Like I said, our opinions don't seem to be far apart, but it *appears* that we value different things....eventhough your statements don't seem to paint you in that light. Remember, I fully support individuals to be caring, compassionate, and charitable....however, as a country, we need to be strong, and selfish FIRST, and charitable second.
I'm not advocating letting them die in the streets. I would hate to see that happen. As a person of faith (you are correct) I believe that we have a responsibility to help people who are in trouble. I also believe that there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy to "be helped" forever. Where charities and churches can't cover these needs (and I don't see evidence that that is the case in the US) the government needs to have programs to step in.

I don't see this as an either/or situation, however. I agree that a government that is solely or primarily focused on creating a welfare state is a government that is doomed to fail eventually. However, taking care of the poor can be and, IMHO, should be one of the functions of a successful long-term government. All this stuff needs to be balanced.
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Old 08-12-2015, 06:35 PM   #79
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A good portion of the permanent-help class would fix their situation if the floor was pulled out from under them. The number, I have no clue. Fact is, we are breeding laziness when we provide endless comfort to those not willing to make any effort. This ends up being passed down generation to generation. Whose fault is it? Government, likely ramping up during the "great society" (lol).
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Old 08-12-2015, 08:12 PM   #80
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A good portion of the permanent-help class would fix their situation if the floor was pulled out from under them. The number, I have no clue. Fact is, we are breeding laziness when we provide endless comfort to those not willing to make any effort. This ends up being passed down generation to generation. Whose fault is it? Government, likely ramping up during the "great society" (lol).

Ayn, is that you?
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