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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

View Poll Results: Which Optic/Mod?
Kahles K16i 2 40.00%
Leupold VX-6 / Dinan Exhaust 1 20.00%
Vortex Razor / Dinan Exhaust 1 20.00%
Dinan Exhaust / Dinan Suspension / DINAN3 badge 1 20.00%
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Old 12-21-2016, 10:58 PM   #21
M3Inline6
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I would go for one with a milrad reticle, or the one with the 3-gun reticle. The difference is all in which reticle you want.

That Mark AR has no illumination, which is why it's so much cheaper than the one I listed. I would not personally get it. Without the FireDot, the Mark AR loses its appeal.

If you're looking to save money now, and upgrade later, the StrikeEagle is likely a better option for you. I would probably take the StrikeEagle over the Mark AR regardless due to the higher magnification. The optical issues in the StrikeEagle are also in the Mark AR. I have not looked through a StrikeEagle yet, but I have spent time behind a Mark AR and they do have some outside distortion and diminished resolution at magnification. The thing is that 4x is a lower number and requires less movement, so the diminished resolution is less noticeable than if it were at 6x. For me, the only selling point to the Mark AR is the FireDot, which is a superior illumination system.
Thanks man. I'm going to research the reticle differences so that I have a better understanding of the terminology.
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Old 12-21-2016, 11:04 PM   #22
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Milrads explained

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-demonstrated/



MOA explained

http://nssf.org/video/facts/MOA.cfm
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Old 12-22-2016, 11:04 AM   #23
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Old 12-23-2016, 01:09 PM   #24
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Optics and Mods Decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
I would go for one with a milrad reticle, or the one with the 3-gun reticle. The difference is all in which reticle you want.

That Mark AR has no illumination, which is why it's so much cheaper than the one I listed. I would not personally get it. Without the FireDot, the Mark AR loses its appeal.

If you're looking to save money now, and upgrade later, the StrikeEagle is likely a better option for you. I would probably take the StrikeEagle over the Mark AR regardless due to the higher magnification. The optical issues in the StrikeEagle are also in the Mark AR. I have not looked through a StrikeEagle yet, but I have spent time behind a Mark AR and they do have some outside distortion and diminished resolution at magnification. The thing is that 4x is a lower number and requires less movement, so the diminished resolution is less noticeable than if it were at 6x. For me, the only selling point to the Mark AR is the FireDot, which is a superior illumination system.

Reedo,

What's your opinion on red dot magnifiers? Also, what's the main difference between a Tango 4 like this and the Tango 6?

I went to Turner's yesterday and I think I've narrowed down the 3 scopes that I want aside from a Milrad/MOA Sig Tango6:
  • Leupold VX-R Patrol 3-9x40 Firedot (...already recommended)
  • Leupold MK IV 4.5-14x50 with the TS-32X1 reticle)
  • Vortex Viper HS LR 4-16x50 with FFP XLR MOA

The VX-R Patrol was already included in the previous write-up, but I'm curious about the other two. Will I miss the illumination if I go for the MK IV or the Vortex? Is that Vortex reticle a gimmick or truly useful?

P.S. I found the VX-R for $396 online (...and the MK IV for $755)....both with free shipping and no tax.
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Old 12-24-2016, 11:26 AM   #25
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The Tango4 is a lower quality scope. It uses different glass and components. The Tango6 is essentially a Vortex Razor HD scope, which is great glass and excellent durability. The Tango4 is not going to be on par with that quality.

Illumination is all up to you. If you plan to shoot in low light, it's necessary. If you don't, it's a non-issue.
The Mark4 was the benchmark for tactical scopes for decades. It's old technology and is very obsolete now when compared to what else is on the market. It's still a great scope. The glass is going to be superior to the VX-R. It you want long range precision, the Mark4 is going to be the better option over the VX-R. The benefit of the VX-R is that you get a red dot that can be used in CQB with binocular vision (both eyes open).

The reticle in the Vortex is a "Christmas tree" reticle and is becoming more and more popular. It's used for hold-over shooting during rapid target engagement, like in TPRC or PRS competitions, as well as with varmint hunting. It's a very useful reticle. If you learn your drops, you can get very fast with target engagement and corrections.
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Old 12-24-2016, 12:45 PM   #26
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Optics and Mods Decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
The Tango4 is a lower quality scope. It uses different glass and components. The Tango6 is essentially a Vortex Razor HD scope, which is great glass and excellent durability. The Tango4 is not going to be on par with that quality.

Illumination is all up to you. If you plan to shoot in low light, it's necessary. If you don't, it's a non-issue.
The Mark4 was the benchmark for tactical scopes for decades. It's old technology and is very obsolete now when compared to what else is on the market. It's still a great scope. The glass is going to be superior to the VX-R. It you want long range precision, the Mark4 is going to be the better option over the VX-R. The benefit of the VX-R is that you get a red dot that can be used in CQB with binocular vision (both eyes open).

The reticle in the Vortex is a "Christmas tree" reticle and is becoming more and more popular. It's used for hold-over shooting during rapid target engagement, like in TPRC or PRS competitions, as well as with varmint hunting. It's a very useful reticle. If you learn your drops, you can get very fast with target engagement and corrections.


Thanks again for that. Taking everything into consideration, I think the VX-R will be a good starting point for me considering that I have A LOT to learn, and I probably won't be outgrowing that scope for quite some time. Add to that the red dot and the $396 price point, and it seems like the proper scope to acquire at this stage in my shooting. I could probably sell it in a year and break even or get a tad more than what I'll pay for it.


edit:

VX-R scored. I should have the 3-9x40 by Friday......just in time for the range Saturday. Reedo, will you recommend mounts and lens covers for this Leupold optic for me (...preferably flip up or tethered)?

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Originally Posted by Qwel on "Manhattan Project"
You heard of me.....burgandy and outlines like murder scenes; Germany..took ferns and flat whites for blurring greens.

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Old 12-24-2016, 03:49 PM   #27
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For caps, I'm a Butler Creek fan. You can order online, but it's always best to take the scope into a gun store and test fit in person, if you can. The other option is a bikini scope cover, which is a stretchy one-piece rubber scope cover that fully removes when you use the scope. I like scope caps for long rang scopes though, because then you can stick a little range elevation adjustment drop chart on the inside of the ocular lens cap. If the scope is going to primarily be uses for CQB, a flip-up ocular lens scope cap may get in the way during operation.

As far as mounts, that's again going to depend on how much you want to spend. If you want something inexpensive, the Burris PEPR mount/SWFA SSALT mount (same mount) is a reasonable option. I put a Redfield in one of these and slapped it on my brother's AR that I built for him to use for hunting coyotes. It's not a QD mount, so you need to make sure you attach it and use a torque wrench to get proper mounting. A slightly more expensive non-QD option is a Nightforce Ultralight Unimount, or Badger Ordnance Unimount. Those two mounts are much higher quality. Leupold also has several non-QD unimounts that you could also consider.

If you want QD, you are going to spend more money. I am a big fan of American Defense Mfg (ADM) mounts. AR15s tend to have a shorter length of pull than other rifles, so it helps to have a cantilever style mount if you have a scope that has a lot of eye relief. ADM has options for regular and extended eye relief. They are made in Wisconsin and their QD lever mounting system is very strong and secure. There was a USSOCOM solicitation for a QD scope mount for the new modular multi-caliber PSR solicitation (ultimately awarded to Accuracy International). They did extensive abuse to the optic mounts, as well as return-to-zero (RTZ) testing, and many failed (including LaRue). The main factor involved related to overall engagement surface area of the attachment levers to the rail.
GDI won the award, and performed the best. Alamo Four Star survived and was given "2nd Place" (even though that's meaningless if you don't get the contract). Bobro Engineering and ADM were the only two other mounts that did not fail the tests. GDI is ungodly expensive, and AFS is pretty spendy as well. ADM is the most cost effective while still being high quality. Bobro is good stuff too.
Kinetic Development Group (KDG) just came out with their new SideLok optics mounts. I've been hearing a lot of positive feedback about KDG and the SideLok.

Whatever you get, you need to make sure that all scope ring screws are coated with blue Loctite and properly torqued to the correct in-lbs to prevent scope shift.
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:55 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
For caps, I'm a Butler Creek fan. You can order online, but it's always best to take the scope into a gun store and test fit in person, if you can. The other option is a bikini scope cover, which is a stretchy one-piece rubber scope cover that fully removes when you use the scope. I like scope caps for long rang scopes though, because then you can stick a little range elevation adjustment drop chart on the inside of the ocular lens cap. If the scope is going to primarily be uses for CQB, a flip-up ocular lens scope cap may get in the way during operation.

As far as mounts, that's again going to depend on how much you want to spend. If you want something inexpensive, the Burris PEPR mount/SWFA SSALT mount (same mount) is a reasonable option. I put a Redfield in one of these and slapped it on my brother's AR that I built for him to use for hunting coyotes. It's not a QD mount, so you need to make sure you attach it and use a torque wrench to get proper mounting. A slightly more expensive non-QD option is a Nightforce Ultralight Unimount, or Badger Ordnance Unimount. Those two mounts are much higher quality. Leupold also has several non-QD unimounts that you could also consider.

If you want QD, you are going to spend more money. I am a big fan of American Defense Mfg (ADM) mounts. AR15s tend to have a shorter length of pull than other rifles, so it helps to have a cantilever style mount if you have a scope that has a lot of eye relief. ADM has options for regular and extended eye relief. They are made in Wisconsin and their QD lever mounting system is very strong and secure. There was a USSOCOM solicitation for a QD scope mount for the new modular multi-caliber PSR solicitation (ultimately awarded to Accuracy International). They did extensive abuse to the optic mounts, as well as return-to-zero (RTZ) testing, and many failed (including LaRue). The main factor involved related to overall engagement surface area of the attachment levers to the rail.
GDI won the award, and performed the best. Alamo Four Star survived and was given "2nd Place" (even though that's meaningless if you don't get the contract). Bobro Engineering and ADM were the only two other mounts that did not fail the tests. GDI is ungodly expensive, and AFS is pretty spendy as well. ADM is the most cost effective while still being high quality. Bobro is good stuff too.
Kinetic Development Group (KDG) just came out with their new SideLok optics mounts. I've been hearing a lot of positive feedback about KDG and the SideLok.

Whatever you get, you need to make sure that all scope ring screws are coated with blue Loctite and properly torqued to the correct in-lbs to prevent scope shift.
Good stuff. I'm on it!



In other news....



...as much as I love the Vortex Sparc AR, I'm in need of magnification. The red dot on its own isn't working for me, and now I've been looking at magnifiers. My astigmatism is causing an issue, and vision is something that Reedo mentioned in another discussion months ago. With all of that considered, do you recommend that I keep the Sparc AR and buy a Burris AR-Tripler to gain the magnification that I need, or seek out a scope that is light in weight and with magnification for my AR15 platform? The VX-R that I purchased is destined for my AR10, so I will be looking for something for my AR15 now.
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Originally Posted by Qwel on "Manhattan Project"
You heard of me.....burgandy and outlines like murder scenes; Germany..took ferns and flat whites for blurring greens.

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Old 12-28-2016, 12:36 PM   #29
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I can't speak to what works with individual astigmatisms, but reading what others have said, the dedicated scope is ideal. Magnifiers only magnify what already exist with a red dot. If you see distortion normally, the magnifier will make it more obvious. It doesn't "crisp" up the dot.
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Old 12-28-2016, 12:41 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
I can't speak to what works with individual astigmatisms, but reading what others have said, the dedicated scope is ideal. Magnifiers only magnify what already exist with a red dot. If you see distortion normally, the magnifier will make it more obvious. It doesn't "crisp" up the dot.
Ok! The Sparc will go back today. Time to review your previous list for budget scopes. Are any of the Nikon or Bushnell offerings any good (...such as the Bushnell BTR-1 BDC for example)?
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Originally Posted by Qwel on "Manhattan Project"
You heard of me.....burgandy and outlines like murder scenes; Germany..took ferns and flat whites for blurring greens.

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Old 12-28-2016, 01:04 PM   #31
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Good stuff. I'm on it!



In other news....



...as much as I love the Vortex Sparc AR, I'm in need of magnification. The red dot on its own isn't working for me, and now I've been looking at magnifiers. My astigmatism is causing an issue, and vision is something that Reedo mentioned in another discussion months ago. With all of that considered, do you recommend that I keep the Sparc AR and buy a Burris AR-Tripler to gain the magnification that I need, or seek out a scope that is light in weight and with magnification for my AR15 platform? The VX-R that I purchased is destined for my AR10, so I will be looking for something for my AR15 now.
I'm not sure if I've responded to your post before, but I have an astigmatism too. For quick shooting, you can get away with the awkward comet that you see through the reticle, but for any type of precision shooting it will get very frustrating very quickly. Don't settle with a red dot that doesn't work for you, it's just not worth it.

I've tried many different red dots, and only two have worked out well for me; Eotech and just recently the Vortex Venom. My suggestion is go to a local shop that carries a variety of red dots and look through them all. I wear my glasses because my shooting glasses have clip in lenses that are the same prescription.

I only have a scope set up on one AR, that firearm is set up for distance shooting. For everything else I use a red dot and a Vortex 3x magnifier when I find it necessary for additional magnification (which honestly is almost never) and it works perfectly well with the reticle in my Eotechs.
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Old 12-28-2016, 01:12 PM   #32
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I'm not sure if I've responded to your post before, but I have an astigmatism too. For quick shooting, you can get away with the awkward comet that you see through the reticle, but for any type of precision shooting it will get very frustrating very quickly. Don't settle with a red dot that doesn't work for you, it's just not worth it.

I've tried many different red dots, and only two have worked out well for me; Eotech and just recently the Vortex Venom. My suggestion is go to a local shop that carries a variety of red dots and look through them all. I wear my glasses because my shooting glasses have clip in lenses that are the same prescription.

I only have a scope set up on one AR, that firearm is set up for distance shooting. For everything else I use a red dot and a Vortex 3x magnifier when I find it necessary for additional magnification (which honestly is almost never) and it works perfectly well with the reticle in my Eotechs.

I was shooting at 25 yards, and this was the best that I could do with the blurry dot. It got very frustrating because I can tighten those groupings significantly if I could better see the target. I was just basically shooting at the red diamond. Sure, it's all center mass, but it just frustrates me because I'm a better shot than that.






My local shop doesn't carry a variety of red dots, but they have scopes (...which is where I was able to check out a few of the scopes that Reedo recommended, and settle on the Leupold VX-R Patrol). My initial intention was to have a dedicated scope set-up on the heavier/larger caliber Sig AR10, and something more CQB oriented on the S&W AR15. I still wanted the AR15 to be shooting tight groupings at 100 yards though. I won't be able to achieve that with the Sparc AR red dot alone, and that isn't necessarily a product issue, but more of an eyesight issue. The Burris magnifier seemed low profile/slim enough, but many of you have more optics experience than I do, and I wanted to get the most for my money.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwel on "Manhattan Project"
You heard of me.....burgandy and outlines like murder scenes; Germany..took ferns and flat whites for blurring greens.

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Old 12-28-2016, 04:39 PM   #33
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I think the best bang for the buck for a budget level scope is the Vortex StrikeEagle 1-6x, Burris MTAC 1-4x, Burris Fullfield TAC30 1-4x, Nikon M-223 1-4x, Leatherwood CMR 1-4x or Bushnell AR Optics 1-4x.
If It were up to me, I'd be looking hard at the Burris or Vortex options.

https://swfa.com/optics/browse.html?...&price=100-401
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Old 12-28-2016, 05:18 PM   #34
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I think the best bang for the buck for a budget level scope is the Vortex StrikeEagle 1-6x, Burris MTAC 1-4x, Burris Fullfield TAC30 1-4x, Nikon M-223 1-4x, Leatherwood CMR 1-4x or Bushnell AR Optics 1-4x.
If It were up to me, I'd be looking hard at the Burris or Vortex options.

https://swfa.com/optics/browse.html?...&price=100-401

I like the reticle on the Burris Fullfield, and I like the form factor of the Nikon. In terms of glass/clarity and illumination between the Fullfield and the StrikeEagle, would you still roll with the Burris?
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Originally Posted by Qwel on "Manhattan Project"
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Old 12-28-2016, 10:42 PM   #35
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It's sort of a toss-up between the Burris Fullfield and Vortex. The Burris has slightly better illumination from what I can find online and looking at YouTube videos. I think it's closer to daylight bright than the Vortex is. I have read mixed reviews that the illumination is visible in all conditions short of direct sunlight into the reticle. In contrast, the Vortex is decidedly not daylight visible in bright conditions, and my buddy who had one was clear about that. The Burris is also going to have better glass, which is expected from Burris (they're now owned by Beretta, who also owns Steiner). The trade-off is is that the Vortex goes up to 6x.

It's basically a $30 split between better illumination or better magnification. I've been behind a Fullfield (3-9x) and it was a nice scope with nice glass. The Stike Eagle is on par with the Diamondback per Vortex's website. While I have not looked through a Strike Eagle, I have looked through a Diamondback and I was less than impressed. The Fullfield is Japanese glass, while the Strike Eagle is Chinese. The Strike Eagle is the same scope as the Primary Arms ACSS 1-6x, as it's made under contract at the factory in China. Japanese glass is better than Chinese glass, and based on that, I would rather run with a Burris. I would also consider Bushnell and Nikon, as both are also Japanese.
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Old 12-28-2016, 10:46 PM   #36
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Optics and Mods Decision

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It's sort of a toss-up between the Burris Fullfield and Vortex. The Burris has slightly better illumination from what I can find online and looking at YouTube videos. I think it's closer to daylight bright than the Vortex is. I have read mixed reviews that the illumination is visible in all conditions short of direct sunlight into the reticle. In contrast, the Vortex is decidedly not daylight visible in bright conditions, and my buddy who had one was clear about that. The Burris is also going to have better glass, which is expected from Burris (they're now owned by Beretta, who also owns Steiner). The trade-off is is that the Vortex goes up to 6x.

It's basically a $30 split between better illumination or better magnification. I've been behind a Fullfield (3-9x) and it was a nice scope with nice glass. The Stike Eagle is on par with the Diamondback per Vortex's website. While I have not looked through a Strike Eagle, I have looked through a Diamondback and I was less than impressed. The Fullfield is Japanese glass, while the Strike Eagle is Chinese. Japanese glass is better without question.


I'm leaning toward the Burris. The MTAC is a better version of the Fullfield, right?! Does the Bushnell have better glass than the Burris?


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwel on "Manhattan Project"
You heard of me.....burgandy and outlines like murder scenes; Germany..took ferns and flat whites for blurring greens.

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Old 12-28-2016, 10:51 PM   #37
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I haven't looked through a lot of Bushnells, but their glass has improved dramatically over the years. I would suspect that they're getting their glass from the same place as Burris, so it all comes down to the coatings and specs. I don't know if it'd have better glass than the Burris though.
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:06 PM   #38
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Optics and Mods Decision

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I haven't looked through a lot of Bushnells, but their glass has improved dramatically over the years. I would suspect that they're getting their glass from the same place as Burris, so it all comes down to the coatings and specs. I don't know if it'd have better glass than the Burris though.


I found a used Burris AR-332 with a GDI R-COM E Model Combat Optic Mount for under $300. Is that particular Burris better than the models we're discussing in this thread?


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Old 12-29-2016, 02:59 AM   #39
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It's a fixed-power 3x optic. That mount is a $215 mount, and they hold their value. I'm surprised that guy isn't selling it separate. It's basically like a lower-quality ACOG or HAMR. Optical quality is about on par with the Fullfield if I remember correctly.
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Old 12-29-2016, 07:20 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
It's a fixed-power 3x optic. That mount is a $215 mount, and they hold their value. I'm surprised that guy isn't selling it separate. It's basically like a lower-quality ACOG or HAMR. Optical quality is about on par with the Fullfield if I remember correctly.


It was on EBay, but I didn't bid on it in time.


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Originally Posted by Qwel on "Manhattan Project"
You heard of me.....burgandy and outlines like murder scenes; Germany..took ferns and flat whites for blurring greens.
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