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Old 11-13-2017, 12:00 PM   #21
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I don't believe neither private companies nor government are altruistic.

So you believe both are altruistic?

Which is far truer in the abstract than in reality. May I remind you of the terms "pre-existing conditions" and "job-lock" to start.

Both issues vanish completely if people don't get their insurance from their employer. Yet rather than implement a simple change to eliminate the employer handcuffs, the Dems saw fit to grasp for the whole enchilada of single payer. Only they failed miserably.

Contact your Representatives/Senators. Vote differently. Campaign for a different policies/candidates. Run for office yourself.

Yes, this is definitely a more immediate, winning strategy than taking your business elsewhere. In the former, all I have to do is convince 50%+1 of the voters in all states to agree with me, whereas in the latter I have to click a weblink to cancel my plan. Ugh, who has time for that?!?

One was capable, experienced and even-tempered, (too?) well versed on policy. The other was a bloviating, bullying narcissist who had no idea what he was getting into. The latter became president despite the significant majority of voters (3 million) clearly preferring the former. Perhaps your disdain for our representative democratic government does have some substance after all.

Yes, Hillary was remarkably calm and stable while she created an illegal email system that jeopardized our national security, while rigging her nomination at the expense of an anti-establishment candidate AND raking in all kinds of pay-for-play dough for her campaign. She was the epitome of the most qualified candidate ever. If only she knew about the secret society known as the Electoral College whose headquarters, apparently, are in Wisconsin she would have won!
..
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Old 11-13-2017, 12:02 PM   #22
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And that's funny how?
I guess if you are inclined to post your personal anecdotes as a means to persuade people to change their opinion on something then you probably aren't inclined to understand how comical that is, and explaining it to you is clearly a waste of time.
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Old 11-13-2017, 12:21 PM   #23
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And I understand, those people like you, have opinions, and it's hard to change them. Maybe I should have posted a CNN article like OP did, but I don't think that'd have mattered at all.

I however still don't find a personal anectode in this case funny. I could have gone to any civilized country have cast put on the same day. Do you agree with that or not?
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Old 11-13-2017, 12:43 PM   #24
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And I understand, those people like you, have opinions, and it's hard to change them. Maybe I should have posted a CNN article like OP did, but I don't think that'd have mattered at all.

I however still don't find a personal anectode in this case funny. I could have gone to any civilized country have cast put on the same day. Do you agree with that or not?
I have no idea of the circumstances for the delay in getting your son's arm put in a cast. Assuming that is what he needed, I would be very angry and frustrated. Based on my personal experiences with the same issue - when my then 8-yr old son had his cast on within 2 hours - I would assume your experience was due to incompetent medical care at worst, or maybe a valid difference of medical opinion as to the necessity or efficacy of putting a cast on him, among many other possible explanations.

In any event, wouldn't it be nice to fire your insurer and/or your doctor and take your next medical issue to a doctor/health insurer whose reputation was better? If your insurance wasn't provided through your employer you could do that. Immediately. What recourse would you have if your insurance was provided by your federal government? Please list all of the options you imagine you would have. According to Dhumb, that list consists of two (2) options:

1. Contact your Representatives/Senators. Vote differently. Campaign for a different policies/candidates.

2. Run for office yourself.

I am sure your son's arm will be ok waiting for 4-10 years of political activism to bear fruit.
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Old 11-13-2017, 12:49 PM   #25
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^ Again, the details don't matter. This is not my son's first cast, seems like we're getting one every year. This year's, however, was different, and that's what I am trying to relay.

I hope you won't have to deal with a similar experience, however, if you do, you might have to understand and accept that one anectode is greater than all of the opinions, including those of the authors' that were linked in the OP. And THAT is far from funny.
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Old 11-13-2017, 01:05 PM   #26
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^ Again, the details don't matter. This is not my son's first cast, seems like we're getting one every year. This year's, however, was different, and that's what I am trying to relay.

I hope you won't have to deal with a similar experience, however, if you do, you might have to understand and accept that one anectode is greater than all of the opinions, including those of the authors' that were linked in the OP. And THAT is far from funny.
Of course the details - the why and why not - matter, especially if you are posting an anecdote in a thread debating the merits of different health care systems, where you specifically offered your experience as proof that our current system is the "worst in the world."

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My son fractured his right wrist last Monday. He will get a cast on tomorrow exactly one week later, because:

1. The healthcare in the US is the worst in the world.

Edit: I was going to go into details, but decided (1) would pretty much sum it up.
That is why your post is comical. No one is laughing at you and your son's experience. Personally, I prefer that no one encountered bad health care but since I am reasonable enough to understand every system has bad experiences, I wish for a system that allows you to take control of your own health care by finding a better provider or insurer.

I am assuming, based on your post quoted above, that you are in favor of single-payer. If so, again, please tell me what control you have in a single-payer system? Or do you think single-payer systems are infallible?
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Old 11-13-2017, 01:22 PM   #27
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What kind of detail do you think would/should cause a 1 week delay in getting a cast in the healthcare system of the most civilized nation in the world? And why should they matter?
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Old 11-13-2017, 02:31 PM   #28
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What kind of detail do you think would/should cause a 1 week delay in getting a cast in the healthcare system of the most civilized nation in the world? And why should they matter?
We don't really have a "healthcare system" in the US, at least not in the way you seem to suggest. All we have are providers who offer services. If there's an unacceptable delay in provision of services, it seems like that's a localized failure, not a systemic one (since we don't really have a national system for healthcare delivery, unless you're in the VA system, I guess).
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Old 11-13-2017, 02:47 PM   #29
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What kind of detail do you think would/should cause a 1 week delay in getting a cast in the healthcare system of the most civilized nation in the world? And why should they matter?
I cannot answer "should" because I am not a doctor trained to evaluate the symptoms and determine treatment. As for what "would" cause a delay, it could be medical malfeasance, which I have already alluded to. Or it could be a legitimate disagreement among medical experts as to which course of action will be the most effective. (Do you think all medical incidents have one and only one proper treatment regime?) Or it could be an ill-intentioned insurance company trying to avoid an expensive claim for profitability reasons.

Since you are being coy with the details, let's assume it is due to medical incompetence or or insurance malfeasance. Do you think malfeasance doesn't exist under other health care systems? Do you think other systems don't seek to avoid expensive treatment?
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Old 11-13-2017, 02:51 PM   #30
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We don't really have a "healthcare system" in the US, at least not in the way you seem to suggest. All we have are providers who offer services. If there's an unacceptable delay in provision of services, it seems like that's a localized failure, not a systemic one (since we don't really have a national system for healthcare delivery, unless you're in the VA system, I guess).
A better response than mine, thank you. I guess I am not following how a delay in getting his son a cast is an indictment of our healthcare "system," any more than a delay in getting my car repair means our entire automotive repair industry is "the worst in the world."
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:10 PM   #31
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I agree that VaderDave's response is better than yours. We don't have a healthcare system in the US, that is comparable to other civilized (or even non-civilized for that matter) nations in the world. That's why the articles in the OP don't make sense.

Now why don't we have such a system? Is it because we don't deserve it? Or maybe it's because we are stuck with these insurance companies with inflated prices thanks to incompetent establishment politicians helping them milk every single dime out of their patients under co-pays, co-insurance, deductible and the terms alike. And that's in addition to thousands they are paying them every month. Think about it.
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:57 PM   #32
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I agree that VaderDave's response is better than yours. We don't have a healthcare system in the US, that is comparable to other civilized (or even non-civilized for that matter) nations in the world. That's why the articles in the OP don't make sense.

Now why don't we have such a system? Is it because we don't deserve it? Or maybe it's because we are stuck with these insurance companies with inflated prices thanks to incompetent establishment politicians helping them milk every single dime out of their patients under co-pays, co-insurance, deductible and the terms alike. And that's in addition to thousands they are paying them every month. Think about it.
Lol, Vader's response was better because he didn't waste time trying to answer your bizarre questions. But yeah, I have thought a lot about it. Perhaps more people should also think about why we have 55%+ of our population covered by employer-sourced health insurance plans versus only 15% covered by directly purchased plans, and how those proportions affect consumer choice, pre-existing condition constraints and pricing. Then think about how flipping the employer/direct proportions would address those issues.
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:59 PM   #33
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I agree that VaderDave's response is better than yours. We don't have a healthcare system in the US, that is comparable to other civilized (or even non-civilized for that matter) nations in the world. That's why the articles in the OP don't make sense.

Now why don't we have such a system? Is it because we don't deserve it? Or maybe it's because we are stuck with these insurance companies with inflated prices thanks to incompetent establishment politicians helping them milk every single dime out of their patients under co-pays, co-insurance, deductible and the terms alike. And that's in addition to thousands they are paying them every month. Think about it.
I don't think I've seen a study of the US that concludes that a single-payer system would be cheaper or more efficient than the patchwork of service providers we have now. From what I've seen, the opposite is true--true costs (not counting subsidies for poor people) would be significantly higher.

I'd love to see counterexamples, though, if they exist.

EDIT: most of what I see is garbage like this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/07/u...ves-money.html

The person who wrote this should be embarrassed.

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Old 11-13-2017, 06:22 PM   #34
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Lol, Vader's response was better because he didn't waste time trying to answer your bizarre questions. But yeah, I have thought a lot about it. Perhaps more people should also think about why we have 55%+ of our population covered by employer-sourced health insurance plans versus only 15% covered by directly purchased plans, and how those proportions affect consumer choice, pre-existing condition constraints and pricing. Then think about how flipping the employer/direct proportions would address those issues.
How would you flip those proportions?

I would agree that our employer-based system is at best an anachronism based on a WWII-era anomaly that makes no sense today.

That employers should have anything to do with their employees healthcare seems, at best, bizarre to me (why should any employer have anything to do with anything so personal as one's health?).

The Guardian has an interesting article on the perverse and negative effects of "job lock."

Fear over healthcare locks Americans in jobs – and throttles creativity

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...y_to_clipboard
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Old 11-13-2017, 06:28 PM   #35
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How would you flip those proportions?

I would agree that our employer-based system is at best an anachronism based on a WWII-era anomaly that makes no sense today.

That employers should have anything to do with their employees healthcare seems, at best, bizarre to me (why should any employer have anything to do with anything so personal as one's health?).

The Guardian has an interesting article on the perverse and negative effects of "job lock."

Fear over healthcare locks Americans in jobs – and throttles creativity

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...y_to_clipboard
If a person refuses to take the leap into entrepreneurship simply because he or she will lose health insurance paid for by his or her employer, it's probably better for that person to remain a cubicle drone.
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Old 11-13-2017, 07:02 PM   #36
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How would you flip those proportions?

I would agree that our employer-based system is at best an anachronism based on a WWII-era anomaly that makes no sense today.

That employers should have anything to do with their employees healthcare seems, at best, bizarre to me (why should any employer have anything to do with anything so personal as one's health?).

The Guardian has an interesting article on the perverse and negative effects of "job lock."

Fear over healthcare locks Americans in jobs – and throttles creativity

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...y_to_clipboard
We have a good deal of agreement here. As to how I would encourage people to purchase their insurance directly, I don't have list of vetted ideas. But, I'd first consider eliminating the tax advantages of paying for employer plans with pre-tax dollars while keeping the deductibility of direct plans. Or simply outlaw employer plans. I am open to other ideas, got any?
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Old 11-13-2017, 07:07 PM   #37
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If a person refuses to take the leap into entrepreneurship simply because he or she will lose health insurance paid for by his or her employer, it's probably better for that person to remain a cubicle drone.
Wow, that is curmudgeonly harsh, VD.

I don't think valuably creative people should be required to also have high levels of risk tolerance or a large bank account to fund medical expenses. What if the next Bill Gates was married to a young spouse with a chronic, non-terminal illness?
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Old 11-13-2017, 07:18 PM   #38
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Wow, that is curmudgeonly harsh, VD.

I don't think valuably creative people should be required to also have high levels of risk tolerance or a large bank account to fund medical expenses. What if the next Bill Gates was married to a young spouse with a chronic, non-terminal illness?
It's merely a reflection of the fact that self-employment isn't for everyone. A person can be creative and contribute in meaningful ways within a larger, less risky organization, sometimes.

As a person who has helped hundreds (maybe thousands at this point) of people start their own businesses, I guess I'm entitled to be a bit more curmudgeonly than others.
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Old 11-13-2017, 08:00 PM   #39
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Sounds a lot like our pre-ACA insurance companies who effectively rationed coverage and services in a wide range of ways (pre-existing conditions, raising rates, yearly/life-time limits, restrictions to in-plan services and physicians (that can result in wait times), denials of coverage, etc., etc...).
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And that's funny how?
As Cabrio noted, I don't think anyone here think's your personal situation is funny. What's funny is when these discussions come up, rather than discuss health care systems as a whole and how they compare and contrast against each other using published data, people feel compelled to give their anecdotes as if they carry any significant weight. Each individual situation is a single data point in a system full of numerous data points. It's just noise and detracts from the overall discussion. Not to mention, we are expected to take your word at face value. We don't know if you're inflating the story to make it seem worse than it is or not. With that said, sorry to hear about your son's situation if that is the case. Hopefully you were able to resolve the situation and understand why the wait time took a week.

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And I understand, those people like you, have opinions, and it's hard to change them. Maybe I should have posted a CNN article like OP did, but I don't think that'd have mattered at all.

I however still don't find a personal anectode in this case funny. I could have gone to any civilized country have cast put on the same day. Do you agree with that or not?
You don't know that. You're assuming that's the case. So without you actually going, then no, I don't agree with it.

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^ Again, the details don't matter. This is not my son's first cast, seems like we're getting one every year. This year's, however, was different, and that's what I am trying to relay.

I hope you won't have to deal with a similar experience, however, if you do, you might have to understand and accept that one anectode is greater than all of the opinions, including those of the authors' that were linked in the OP. And THAT is far from funny.
So it sounds like in year's past when your son had to get casts, the wait times weren't as long? What changed if you had to stop and think about it? Did you change insurance providers? Doctors? Only you know your unique personal situation. The rest of us are just strangers on a forum.

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What kind of detail do you think would/should cause a 1 week delay in getting a cast in the healthcare system of the most civilized nation in the world? And why should they matter?
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I agree that VaderDave's response is better than yours. We don't have a healthcare system in the US, that is comparable to other civilized (or even non-civilized for that matter) nations in the world. That's why the articles in the OP don't make sense.

Now why don't we have such a system? Is it because we don't deserve it? Or maybe it's because we are stuck with these insurance companies with inflated prices thanks to incompetent establishment politicians helping them milk every single dime out of their patients under co-pays, co-insurance, deductible and the terms alike. And that's in addition to thousands they are paying them every month. Think about it.
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We don't really have a "healthcare system" in the US, at least not in the way you seem to suggest. All we have are providers who offer services. If there's an unacceptable delay in provision of services, it seems like that's a localized failure, not a systemic one (since we don't really have a national system for healthcare delivery, unless you're in the VA system, I guess).
It's not so much that we don't have a "system", we have multiple systems in our country at work. From post 18.

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The Out-of-Pocket Model

Only the developed, industrialized countries — perhaps 40 of the world’s 200 countries — have established health care systems. Most of the nations on the planet are too poor and too disorganized to provide any kind of mass medical care. The basic rule in such countries is that the rich get medical care; the poor stay sick or die.

In rural regions of Africa, India, China and South America, hundreds of millions of people go their whole lives without ever seeing a doctor. They may have access, though, to a village healer using home-brewed remedies that may or not be effective against disease.

In the poor world, patients can sometimes scratch together enough money to pay a doctor bill; otherwise, they pay in potatoes or goat’s milk or child care or whatever else they may have to give. If they have nothing, they don’t get medical care.

These four models should be fairly easy for Americans to understand because we have elements of all of them in our fragmented national health care apparatus. When it comes to treating veterans, we’re Britain or Cuba. For Americans over the age of 65 on Medicare, we’re Canada. For working Americans who get insurance on the job, we’re Germany.

For the 15 percent of the population who have no health insurance, the United States is Cambodia or Burkina Faso or rural India, with access to a doctor available if you can pay the bill out-of-pocket at the time of treatment or if you’re sick enough to be admitted to the emergency ward at the public hospital.


The United States is unlike every other country because it maintains so many separate systems for separate classes of people. All the other countries have settled on one model for everybody. This is much simpler than the U.S. system; it’s fairer and cheaper, too.
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Old 11-13-2017, 08:09 PM   #40
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It's not so much that we don't have a "system", we have multiple systems in our country at work. From post 18.
I think our statements are in agreement. I guess the focus should be on the fact that we don't have A system (as opposed to multiple systems).
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