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Old 03-14-2016, 12:27 PM   #21
Constant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnerg1 View Post
Side note, the seal that comes in this actuator has a taper of some sorts so not sure a typical round oring is correct.
I didn't mean a typical o-ring that's round, but rather meaning the original appeared to be a square profile one with uniform diameter. At least, that was what it looked like in the pieces that cracked off.

The manual trans version has an asymmetrical "ridge" to it. I am wondering if some of us having issues have a slightly tighter tolerance in the slave cylinder bore, and that ridge is actually flexing too much and binding?

If I have the time, I'll pull mine and put calipers on it.
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Old 03-14-2016, 08:50 PM   #22
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So I removed my SSG slave cylinder tonight. The new o-ring has been in place for 2 days, and the piston was seized all the way at the bottom of the cylinder. The spring behind the piston is basically useless and the piston will not move freely, as the fit is too tight with the manual o-ring.

Since I had it out, I took the measurements of the manual vs. SSG pistons. Needless to say, the differences are quite drastic and explains why the piston seizes in the cylinder.

Measurement-------SSG-----------------Manual
Inside bore_______11.90mm/0.4685"_____13.37mm/0.527"
Outside bore______19.93mm/0.7850"_____22.10mm/0.872"
Groove height______6.08mm/0.2390"______6.37mm/0.251"
O-ring outside__________?/?___________23.23mm/0.9145"


I could not measure the actual cylinder diameter, the calipers didn't fit. However, the widest part of the piston is around the magnet, which measures 20.05mm/0.789". Even without an o-ring, the piston just barely slides freely. So I don't think the o-ring is much bigger than that. The manual trans piston doesn't even clear the outer snap ring groove, much less come close to fitting inside the cylinder.

Some pics:
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Last edited by Constant; 03-14-2016 at 09:01 PM. Reason: update cylinder diameter
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Old 03-15-2016, 05:34 AM   #23
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This is good info Constant. Makes me wonder how long the rest of the folks have until their newly modified actuator will last until they are stranded again. Its going to happen.
Due to the diameter of the cylinder the oring doesn't work.
So I wonder if the inside of the cylinder could be turned to match a manual?
Would there be enough sealing in the oring to prevent leakage?

Greg
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Old 03-15-2016, 10:24 AM   #24
jd improved
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Maybe it is possible to use a std hydraulic U seal like this:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/161403381447?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

they also sell a 12 x 20 x 6 mm U ring seal

Last edited by jd improved; 03-15-2016 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 03-15-2016, 11:13 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd improved View Post
Maybe it is possible to use a std hydraulic U seal like this:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/161403381447?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

they also sell a 12 x 20 x 6 mm U ring seal
That looks great. From my reading, the "U-cup" seal style like you have in your link is the preferred method to seal a piston or rod like this. The design causes the hydraulic fluid to push against the cup, and flare out the "U" to create a tighter seal against the cylinder wall.

The only thing I don't know is if polyurethane is chemically compatible with Pentosin? From the Parker Hannifin seal guide, they list Nitrile (Buna-N) and Flourocarbon Rubber (like Viton) as compatible. Urethane was not on the list.

I picked up a generic round Buna-N o-ring at lunch today from a local hydraulic repair shop. It slides much easier, and measures 21mm diameter uncompressed. I will try it tonight just as a test. If clutch engagement is smooth and it doesn't leak, then a U-cup seal in this size will be perfect.
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Old 03-15-2016, 12:05 PM   #26
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I wonder if anyone has an old oring that is still intact we could get measurements on, or if the ones you took on the piston itself could be given to a hydraulic shop and they could spec a U-cup Buna or Viton seal that works.
Let us know how your test comes out Constant.

Greg
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Old 03-15-2016, 03:24 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd improved View Post
they also sell a 12 x 20 x 6 mm U ring seal
I ordered a 12x20x6mm piston u-seal from a supplier in the US today. The material is Nitrile (Buna-N) with a A80 hardness, so slightly harder than the stock piece which I believe is closer to A70. I'll report back if it is acceptable once I get it.
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Old 03-16-2016, 05:48 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Constant View Post
I ordered a 12x20x6mm piston u-seal from a supplier in the US today. The material is Nitrile (Buna-N) with a A80 hardness, so slightly harder than the stock piece which I believe is closer to A70. I'll report back if it is acceptable once I get it.
Let us know what you find out.
Im also going to see if a local hydraulic seal company here in Atlanta can spec a part.
One question, what did you measure for your "outer bore" dimension.
You show that as 19.93 but then say the magnet diameter is 20.05.

It doesn't make sense then that a 20mm diameter oring is correct if the magnet is larger than the oring.

Greg
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:03 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnerg1 View Post
Let us know what you find out.
Im also going to see if a local hydraulic seal company here in Atlanta can spec a part.
One question, what did you measure for your "outer bore" dimension.
You show that as 19.93 but then say the magnet diameter is 20.05.

It doesn't make sense then that a 20mm diameter oring is correct if the magnet is larger than the oring.

Greg
I was unable to measure the cylinder bore. My calipers weren't long enough to reach in there.

I know what you're saying, but I'm counting on the U-cup design to seal it properly once hydraulic fluid forces the seal outward like this:



On a side note, the generic o-ring seems to be holding fluid OK as a temp fix. The clutch engagement is much smoother, but 1->2 shift is still a little wonky. I will bleed the clutch slave tonight and see if it takes care of it.
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:12 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Constant View Post
I was unable to measure the cylinder bore. My calipers weren't long enough to reach in there.

I know what you're saying, but I'm counting on the U-cup design to seal it properly once hydraulic fluid forces the seal outward like this:



On a side note, the generic o-ring seems to be holding fluid OK as a temp fix. The clutch engagement is much smoother, but 1->2 shift is still a little wonky. I will bleed the clutch slave tonight and see if it takes care of it.
so did you go with the symmetric seal or no?
Also, I was just curious what component location you measured at where you said outer bore was 19.93.
I think a suitable 12X20X6 Ucup may be the trick.

Thanks,

Greg
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:44 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnerg1 View Post
so did you go with the symmetric seal or no?
Also, I was just curious what component location you measured at where you said outer bore was 19.93.
I think a suitable 12X20X6 Ucup may be the trick.
I went with an asymmetric seal since it's the same config as the manual trans version. The outer bore of 19.93mm was measured at the piston just in front and back of the o-ring groove.
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Old 03-17-2016, 04:28 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Constant View Post
I went with an asymmetric seal since it's the same config as the manual trans version. The outer bore of 19.93mm was measured at the piston just in front and back of the o-ring groove.
Looking forward for more test results with the new seal.
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Old 03-22-2016, 10:16 PM   #33
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OK, I finally got around to trying the new u-cup seal tonight. This is the 12x20x6 mm seal I ordered last week.

New seal details:
When I received the seal, the package actually said 12x20x5.5, while the measured dimensions using my calipers showed 10x20x5.5mm. The 10mm number is to our advantage, since the outer 20mm dimension is almost too small to seal well on it's own. However, the smaller inner hole pushes the seal slightly outward toward the cylinder wall, resulting in a better seal.

The new seal is also shore 80A (like a dress shoe heel sole hardness), while the manual trans version is closer to a 50-60A (like a bungee strap). As a result, the new seal is much harder to stretch around the piston groove. The harder durometer seal should resist seal extrusion better than the manual version and wear less, which is ultimately what I think caused mine to fail after the 1st rebuild.

Installation tips:
Due to the original and manual trans seal failures, I noted the slave cylinder walls had a couple small "rings" worn into it. I used 1000 grit sandpaper to smooth out the worn spots prior to installing the new seal.

Since the new seal is much harder and has a smaller inside bore, more force is required to stretch in onto the piston. It helps to soak the seal in hot water to make it more pliable. Then use a small screwdriver or thick pick to roll it onto the piston.

I noticed with this new seal, the piston slides smoothly in the cylinder, just a slight drag to it. The spring still works and pushes the piston back to the return position. The manual trans version was very difficult to push in, and the spring was useless. With my temporary o-ring, it was somewhere in the middle of the two.

Slave cylinder assembly:
Once the piston was in and snapring installed, I noted the rubber gaiter after only 1 week had started to get "gummy" and the ridges were starting to stick together. I wonder if the gaiter material is not Pentosin resistant? I cleaned it and liberally applied Gummi-Pflege to it to prevent further sticking.

With the hydraulic line installed on slave cylinder but still dangling under the car, I bled the SSG system. Good news, the seal does not leak! I left the gaiter off so I could see if the piston head got wet, but it stayed dry.

After completely mounting the slave cylinder, I re-bled the hydraulics and re-ran adaptation. Unfortunately, the computer still slips the clutch too much to my liking between shifts. However, the actual gears changes are noticeably faster.

Time will tell if this new seal holds up, but of the three I've tried this one fits the best. The pic below shows the new seal, temporary o-ring, and manual trans (L to R).
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Last edited by Constant; 03-23-2016 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 03-22-2016, 10:17 PM   #34
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New seal mounted
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Old 03-22-2016, 10:19 PM   #35
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Another angle
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Old 03-23-2016, 05:42 AM   #36
turnerg1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Constant View Post
OK, I finally got around to trying the new u-cup seal tonight. This is the 12x20x6 mm seal I ordered last week.

New seal details:
When I received the seal, the package actually said 12x20x5.5, while the measured dimensions using my calipers showed 10x20x5.5mm. The 10mm number is to our advantage, since the outer 20mm dimension is almost too small to seal well on it's own. However, the smaller inner hole pushes the seal slightly outward toward the cylinder wall, resulting in a better seal.

The new seal is also shore 80A (like a dress shoe heel sole hardness), while the manual trans version is closer to a 50-60A (like a bungee strap). As a result, the new seal is much harder to stretch around the piston groove.

Installation tips:
Due to the original and manual trans seal failures, I noted the slave cylinder walls had a couple small "rings" worn into it. I used 1000 grit sandpaper to smooth out the worn spots prior to installing the new seal.

Since the new seal is much harder and has a smaller inside bore, more force is required to stretch in onto the piston. It helps to soak the seal in hot water to make it more pliable. Then use a small screwdriver or thick pick to roll it onto the piston.

I noticed with this new seal, the piston slides smoothly in the cylinder, just a slight drag to it. The spring still works and pushes the piston back to the return position. The manual trans version was very difficult to push in, and the spring was useless. With my temporary o-ring, it was somewhere in the middle of the two.

Slave cylinder assembly:
Once the piston was in and snapring installed, I noted the rubber fairer after only 1 week had started to get "gummy" and the ridges were starting to stick together. I wonder if the gaiter material is not Pentosin resistant? I cleaned it and liberally applied Gummi-Pflege to it to prevent further sticking.

With the hydraulic line installed on slave cylinder but still dangling under the car, I bled the SSG system. Good news, the seal does not leak! I left the gaiter off so I could see if the piston head got wet, but it stayed dry.

After completely mounting the slave cylinder, I re-bled the hydraulics and re-ran adaptation. Unfortunately, the computer still slips the clutch too much to my liking between shifts. However, the actual gears changes are noticeably faster.

Time will tell if this new seal holds up, but of the three I've tried this one fits the best. The pic below shows the new seal, temporary o-ring, and manual trans (L to R).
This is excellent. Thanks. Im going to order one. I wonder why the discrepancy between indicated and measured size. nature of mm measurements maybe?
I wonder if ordering one from a hydraulic vendor provides the same size.

Greg
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Old 03-23-2016, 05:49 AM   #37
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Forgot to include the source:
http://herculesus.com/product.php?productid=628008

Shipping is fast in the US. I have an extra one if you want it Greg.
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Old 03-23-2016, 06:06 AM   #38
turnerg1
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Forgot to include the source:
http://herculesus.com/product.php?productid=628008

Shipping is fast in the US. I have an extra one if you want it Greg.
thanks. I just ordered 2. Hoping I never have to use the 2nd.
Thanks again for all the work. Hopefully others will benefit from this exercise.

Greg
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Old 03-25-2016, 08:56 AM   #39
turnerg1
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Forgot to include the source:
http://herculesus.com/product.php?productid=628008

Shipping is fast in the US. I have an extra one if you want it Greg.
How is it holding up drive wise.
My seals are to be delivered today so Im hoping to have some feedback by tomorrow.

Greg
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Old 03-25-2016, 10:55 AM   #40
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So far so good, no leaks, shifts are accurate.

The computer still slips the clutch far too much between gear changes. Does anyone else's SSG do this too?
I think this is adaptation related, as I've done it a couple times and it changes the shift characteristic slightly each time. Perhaps INPA is not able to do the calibration the same as the dealer's DIS/GT1? Using Tool32, I forced the clutch learning values to be reset. Then I ran the SSG adaptation again, but still slipping the clutch between gear changes. Maybe this is how Magnetti Marelli designed it?

For the record, here's what I've replaced on this transmission within the last 10k miles:
- Rebuilt clutch slave cylinder a half dozen times
- New hydraulic pump
- New clutch/flywheel/PP/throwout bearing/clutch fork
- New SSG relay in fusebox
- Both new gear shift sensors
- Fluid changed
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