Media Collusion/Fake News Thread - Page 15 - E46Fanatics E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Political Talk

Political Talk
You may discuss anything regarding politics in this forum ONLY. If you cannot respect others opinions, your access to this forum will be removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-03-2017, 08:55 PM   #281
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed17331 View Post
Your answer was "no".

The rape and murder of your mother or daughter does not matter to you unless the perp is found and convicted.

That's the story you are going with?

(what an idiot)

You still can't comprehend that your question is irrelevant to facts.


Sent from my iPhone using E46Fanatics mobile app
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2017, 09:19 PM   #282
ed17331
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hanover, PA
Posts: 20
My Ride: 2002 BMW 325i Sedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdsesq View Post
You still can't comprehend that your question is irrelevant to facts.


Sent from my iPhone using E46Fanatics mobile app
It's called a hypothetical question (or thought experiment). You should look into it. It is a critical part of the skill we adults call thinking. Now go back to the children's section.
ed17331 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2017, 09:42 PM   #283
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed17331 View Post
It's called a hypothetical question (or thought experiment). You should look into it. It is a critical part of the skill we adults call thinking. Now go back to the children's section.
Oh the rustled jimmies of Mr Ed.

Hypothetical doesn't change facts. Tell me "if it mattered" would that hypothetically murdered person magically pop back to life? The answer is no. Since the question doesn't change even your hypothetical "facts", it is irrelevant. You still can't grasp that.


Sent from my iPhone using E46Fanatics mobile app
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2017, 10:53 PM   #284
ed17331
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hanover, PA
Posts: 20
My Ride: 2002 BMW 325i Sedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdsesq View Post
Oh the rustled jimmies of Mr Ed.

Hypothetical doesn't change facts. Tell me "if it mattered" would that hypothetically murdered person magically pop back to life? The answer is no. Since the question doesn't change even your hypothetical "facts", it is irrelevant. You still can't grasp that.
Nobody is saying that it would change the facts of what happened (in the hypothetical) - or that anyone would pop back to life. In fact, that is the central part of my point (that you fail to grasp) - and that is - your mother (or daughter) is still dead WHETHER OR NOT anyone is convicted of the crime (for her rape and murder).

That is why I asked you if it mattered TO YOU that your mother (or daughter) was raped and murdered (when the perp is not found or convicted).

>>
Let me put it to you this way (to illustrate the absurdity of your assertion that unless there are legal charges - it doesn't matter):

If your mother (or daughter) is raped and murdered, and they can't find the perp to bring legal charges against, does it matter to you that the rape and murder occurred?
>>

Correct me if I am wrong (or if you change your position), but you answered "no" (the fact that your mother was raped and murdered does NOT matter to you, because no perp was found - and therefore no legal charges could be made).

That is a totally absurd position to take. Of course it matters to you that your mother suffered a horrible rape and death (in this hypothetical). She is dead and nothing will change those facts about her rape and murder (regardless of whether or not the perp is found - or convicted).

Why wouldn't it matter to you? Of course it matters to you! It's horrible. It's your family.

Now the reason I introduced this hypothetical was to illustrate the absurdity of your position that unless there are legal charges brought - the facts of the crime don't matter.

My position is that the facts (of the crime) DO matter. The facts (of the crime - of what actually happened) will not change dependent upon whether or not a perp is found or a conviction is obtained. It might change the legal status of the perp, but it does not change what already occurred during the crime itself (the facts).

It is YOU who seems to want to change the facts of the crime event based upon whether or not a conviction is ultimately secured.

You take the position that if there is no conviction, there was no crime that occurred. But that is wrong.

You are like the Schrodingers Cat of crime - the cat is both alive and dead at the same time until the scientist opens the box to check the cat. You would have us believe that the murder both happened and didn't happen (and the victim is both alive and dead) until the outcome of the prosecution is known - whereupon a conviction means that there was a murder and the victim is dead, and a not guilty verdict means that there was no murder and the victim is still alive.

That is ridiculous. Whatever happened...actually happened. And the outcome of the prosecution only affects the legal status of the defendant - it has no effect on the victim (of a murder) - it has no effect on the facts of the crime events.

Do you understand what I am trying to say - or is all of this over your head (as it seems to be)?
ed17331 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2017, 03:49 AM   #285
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Media Collusion/Fake News Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ed17331 View Post
Nobody is saying that it would change the facts of what happened (in the hypothetical) - or that anyone would pop back to life. In fact, that is the central part of my point (that you fail to grasp) - and that is - your mother (or daughter) is still dead WHETHER OR NOT anyone is convicted of the crime (for her rape and murder).

That is why I asked you if it mattered TO YOU that your mother (or daughter) was raped and murdered (when the perp is not found or convicted).

>>
Let me put it to you this way (to illustrate the absurdity of your assertion that unless there are legal charges - it doesn't matter):

If your mother (or daughter) is raped and murdered, and they can't find the perp to bring legal charges against, does it matter to you that the rape and murder occurred?
>>

Correct me if I am wrong (or if you change your position), but you answered "no" (the fact that your mother was raped and murdered does NOT matter to you, because no perp was found - and therefore no legal charges could be made).

That is a totally absurd position to take. Of course it matters to you that your mother suffered a horrible rape and death (in this hypothetical). She is dead and nothing will change those facts about her rape and murder (regardless of whether or not the perp is found - or convicted).

Why wouldn't it matter to you? Of course it matters to you! It's horrible. It's your family.

Now the reason I introduced this hypothetical was to illustrate the absurdity of your position that unless there are legal charges brought - the facts of the crime don't matter.

My position is that the facts (of the crime) DO matter. The facts (of the crime - of what actually happened) will not change dependent upon whether or not a perp is found or a conviction is obtained. It might change the legal status of the perp, but it does not change what already occurred during the crime itself (the facts).

It is YOU who seems to want to change the facts of the crime event based upon whether or not a conviction is ultimately secured.

You take the position that if there is no conviction, there was no crime that occurred. But that is wrong.

You are like the Schrodingers Cat of crime - the cat is both alive and dead at the same time until the scientist opens the box to check the cat. You would have us believe that the murder both happened and didn't happen (and the victim is both alive and dead) until the outcome of the prosecution is known - whereupon a conviction means that there was a murder and the victim is dead, and a not guilty verdict means that there was no murder and the victim is still alive.

That is ridiculous. Whatever happened...actually happened. And the outcome of the prosecution only affects the legal status of the defendant - it has no effect on the victim (of a murder) - it has no effect on the facts of the crime events.

Do you understand what I am trying to say - or is all of this over your head (as it seems to be)?


Would tier being dead impact me? Yes. It would not impact me or even less if they were murdered, ran out in front of a bus, or killed them self. None of what I would feel will change. However, the police can't find the perp. It isn't really the fault of the police. Unsolved murders occur everyday in the country. It is pointless to get outraged at the people who did it, since I don't know whom they are. All of this leads to the answer of "irrelevant".

I might have feelings about their lose, but outrage at the person who did it. No. And doubly true if the perp can't be found. I don't know who did it. At that point, theoretically every member of this forum is a suspect (some better than others) however to treat and make public claim without sustainable evidence does no good. Outrage with no focus is not outrage. You are outraged against Clinton based on how you think she did her job in the senate, madame sec, and First Lady. You let loose your hatred for her when certain evidence ;not strong enough to bring conviction popped up through "interesting and partisan persons" you immediately conclude she IS guilty of every crime under the sun.and even worse you state your interpretation of this evidence as absolute proof and convict her.
You are a lynch mob just waiting for someone to string up and her she is.already someone you hate. For you it's better than xmas.

But at the end of the day, all you have are bits and pieces of data, often subjective themselves and are still not powerful enough to actually convict.

You believe she is guilty and corrupt. You expound your belief. (And I support your right to do so under the 1st and) however, if you state your belief in certain information and don't have the wherewithal to prove this information is hard enough evidence for even indictment, it is clear that you are pushing unsubstantiated claims as facts. Somebody calls you out on it, and you cry like a little girl. Clinton might be corrupt, hell, she might even be a ham sandwich. I don't know (since there is not enough evidence to even bring down an indictment. I don't know or care. IF there is a point in time where there is enough hard evidence to indite, I will reconsider my view then but only then. So until you have hard evidence that can at least get an indictment please have the courtesy to control yourself and make it clear that all you have are unsupported accusations and your option.

But, enough is enough on trying to enlighten you. My work here is done. Good day.

Sent from my iPhone using E46Fanatics mobile app
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes

Last edited by rdsesq; 06-04-2017 at 03:54 AM.
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2017, 09:25 AM   #286
ed17331
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hanover, PA
Posts: 20
My Ride: 2002 BMW 325i Sedan
^fascinating ramblings of a disorganized and illogical mind.

Nixon was corrupt. You believed this until I schooled you that he was never convicted, then you changed your mind and believed he was not corrupt. Your ignorance of the circumstances concerning Nixon's downfall and Pardon does not change what Nixon actually did while in office. It does not change the facts. Nixon was corrupt and you refuse to acknowledge this (even though you believed exactly this until recently). The only thing that changed was that I educated you on the fact that there was never a conviction (i.e. the only thing that changed was your ignorance, not what Nixon actually did - the facts of Nixon's corruption did not change).

Hillary is corrupt. She made her fortune by systematically peddling influence (selling us out) and conducting fraudulent global charity scams (ripping off the poorest, neediest, and most helpless people on the planet). Why do you think she closed her "charity" as soon as she lost the election?

America dodged a bullet when they rejected Hillary and elected Trump. I thank god and the wisdom of the voters every day for this blessing. We are all better off for it.
ed17331 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2017, 10:26 AM   #287
swordsman11868
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 1,826
My Ride: 2003 325i
Transmission: Autotragic
^That wasn't a bullet we dodged. That was an Armageddon-sized asteroid that was diverted at the last second! Lol.


Sent from my iPhone using E46Fanatics
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I'm just here to change the world.
BMW Wiki:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


2016 Beheadings in Saudi Arabia: 92.
swordsman11868 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2017, 10:33 AM   #288
ti317
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 932
My Ride: 02 330ci coupe 5 spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by swordsman11868 View Post
^That wasn't a bullet we dodged. That was an Armageddon-sized asteroid that was diverted at the last second! Lol.


Sent from my iPhone using E46Fanatics


You're just a misogynistic bully. You seem to think that "Vote for me, I have a vagina!" was not a winning message that resonated with the American voters outside of NY and CA.
__________________
The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get any worse every time Congress meets. - Will Rogers
ti317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2017, 10:43 AM   #289
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Media Collusion/Fake News Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ed17331 View Post
^fascinating ramblings of a disorganized and illogical mind.

Nixon was corrupt. You believed this until I schooled you that he was never convicted, then you changed your mind and believed he was not corrupt. Your ignorance of the circumstances concerning Nixon's downfall and Pardon does not change what Nixon actually did while in office. It does not change the facts. Nixon was corrupt and you refuse to acknowledge this (even though you believed exactly this until recently). The only thing that changed was that I educated you on the fact that there was never a conviction (i.e. the only thing that changed was your ignorance, not what Nixon actually did - the facts of Nixon's corruption did not change).

Hillary is corrupt. She made her fortune by systematically peddling influence (selling us out) and conducting fraudulent global charity scams (ripping off the poorest, neediest, and most helpless people on the planet). Why do you think she closed her "charity" as soon as she lost the election?

America dodged a bullet when they rejected Hillary and elected Trump. I thank god and the wisdom of the voters every day for this blessing. We are all better off for it.


Reagan was corrupt. He willingly broke the law. Yet you refuse to acknowledge this.

IF she did make her fortune influenced peddling, as you claim, good for her. She beat the system. She made millions and was never tried or convicted of the crime. In America we call that success. (Ask J D Rockefeller) Clinton inspired an entire generation of women in this country to get involved in politics and to be politically active. That in and of itself is a benefit to our country.

Personally I loathe Nixon. Could stand most of his policies or political ideology. If he got away with it, fine and dandy. A round of applause for a man who is still the best foreign policy president of the last 100+ years.

You rail against Nixon and Clinton, but give your hero Reagan a pass for breaking the law.

I'll even applaud OJ Simpson. It's quite possible he did get away with murder, but he was found innocent of the charges.

Carlo Gambino may have run one of the most economically successful crime organizations in American history and never was convicted. Good for him.

These people were better at it than you or I.

Ordinary people speed and/or cheat on their taxes and break the law all the time in this country. These people just did it better. People street race and hot chicks talk their way out of tickets everyday. Laws are laws, little or small. I don't have outrage for them. They got away with committing a crime(s). God for them too. They beat the system. Done don't and it sucks to be them.

We are a nation of law breakers. Seems to me they have all proved themselves as real Americans.

You can't grasp amorality. Well you can, you just refuse to admit it. (Iran-Contra...subverting the democratic process and truly abusing the power of the presidency seems pretty high up there on your list of no-nos. however a man that (allegedly) did that did it you give a pass too.

You are a hypocrite of the highest order. At least I am consistent in my view. If you would just recognize that you are spouting you opinion, and not supporting the rule of law, you would be less delusional. However, you won't. So enjoy your "faux outrage for these criminals", hardon for Reagan, and rustled jimmies.

You like your absurd arguments are irrelevant.



Sent from my iPhone using E46Fanatics mobile app
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes

Last edited by rdsesq; 06-04-2017 at 10:47 AM.
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2017, 10:50 AM   #290
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In your gf's front hole
Posts: 356
My Ride: Longboard
Send a message via ICQ to Act of God Send a message via AIM to Act of God Send a message via Yahoo to Act of God
That's a lot of typing for someone with a dick up their butt
__________________
“The left does not win its battles in debate. It doesn’t have to. In the twenty-first century, media is everything. The left wins because it controls the narrative. The narrative is controlled by the media. The left is the media. Narrative is everything,” - Andrew Breitbart
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2017, 01:49 PM   #291
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Media Collusion/Fake News Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
That's a lot of typing for someone with a dick up their butt


You are obviously speaking from your own personal experience. Glad to see you have embraced your inner self.


Sent from my iPhone using E46Fanatics mobile app
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes

Last edited by rdsesq; 06-04-2017 at 01:50 PM.
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2017, 03:52 PM   #292
ed17331
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hanover, PA
Posts: 20
My Ride: 2002 BMW 325i Sedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdsesq View Post
Reagan was corrupt. He willingly broke the law. Yet you refuse to acknowledge this.

IF she did make her fortune influenced peddling, as you claim, good for her. She beat the system. She made millions and was never tried or convicted of the crime. In America we call that success. (Ask J D Rockefeller) Clinton inspired an entire generation of women in this country to get involved in politics and to be politically active. That in and of itself is a benefit to our country.

Personally I loathe Nixon. Could stand most of his policies or political ideology. If he got away with it, fine and dandy. A round of applause for a man who is still the best foreign policy president of the last 100+ years.

You rail against Nixon and Clinton, but give your hero Reagan a pass for breaking the law.

I'll even applaud OJ Simpson. It's quite possible he did get away with murder, but he was found innocent of the charges.

Carlo Gambino may have run one of the most economically successful crime organizations in American history and never was convicted. Good for him.

These people were better at it than you or I.

Ordinary people speed and/or cheat on their taxes and break the law all the time in this country. These people just did it better. People street race and hot chicks talk their way out of tickets everyday. Laws are laws, little or small. I don't have outrage for them. They got away with committing a crime(s). God for them too. They beat the system. Done don't and it sucks to be them.

We are a nation of law breakers. Seems to me they have all proved themselves as real Americans.

You can't grasp amorality. Well you can, you just refuse to admit it. (Iran-Contra...subverting the democratic process and truly abusing the power of the presidency seems pretty high up there on your list of no-nos. however a man that (allegedly) did that did it you give a pass too.

You are a hypocrite of the highest order. At least I am consistent in my view. If you would just recognize that you are spouting you opinion, and not supporting the rule of law, you would be less delusional. However, you won't. So enjoy your "faux outrage for these criminals", hardon for Reagan, and rustled jimmies.

You like your absurd arguments are irrelevant.



Sent from my iPhone using E46Fanatics mobile app
You have done a great job of exposing your immoral and unethical belief system (as well as your tenuous grasp of language and limited ability to think rationally). Congratulations (you're an idiot).

Your admiration for murderers and mobsters who literally "got away with murder" is both despicable and absurd. It nicely illustrates your complete lack of integrity, morals, and honorable values.

I don't know how you acquired such a warped and twisted framework of unethical beliefs, but I hope that when you grow up you will realize how wrong you were. In the meantime, please educate yourself and for christs sakes don't vote or breed.
ed17331 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2017, 07:49 AM   #293
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In your gf's front hole
Posts: 356
My Ride: Longboard
Send a message via ICQ to Act of God Send a message via AIM to Act of God Send a message via Yahoo to Act of God


https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/871499432063365120
Quote:
Same group. Multiple locations. Any more screen shots? Spot the pink trousers. Were this group for hire? #FakeNews
__________________
“The left does not win its battles in debate. It doesn’t have to. In the twenty-first century, media is everything. The left wins because it controls the narrative. The narrative is controlled by the media. The left is the media. Narrative is everything,” - Andrew Breitbart

Last edited by Act of God; 06-05-2017 at 07:50 AM.
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 07:47 AM   #294
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In your gf's front hole
Posts: 356
My Ride: Longboard
Send a message via ICQ to Act of God Send a message via AIM to Act of God Send a message via Yahoo to Act of God
__________________
“The left does not win its battles in debate. It doesn’t have to. In the twenty-first century, media is everything. The left wins because it controls the narrative. The narrative is controlled by the media. The left is the media. Narrative is everything,” - Andrew Breitbart
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 01:05 PM   #295
swordsman11868
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 1,826
My Ride: 2003 325i
Transmission: Autotragic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post


NBC must have had that tweet prewritten.

Pulled the trigger without proofreading. What great journalism!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I'm just here to change the world.
BMW Wiki:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


2016 Beheadings in Saudi Arabia: 92.
swordsman11868 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 01:07 PM   #296
VaderDave
Invictus
 
VaderDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: El Dorado Hills, CA
Posts: 12,055
My Ride: 330CiC ZHP
Probably just crap translations. I didn't watch the interview, but I'm assuming Putin wasn't speaking English.
VaderDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 02:26 PM   #297
ti317
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 932
My Ride: 02 330ci coupe 5 spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaderDave View Post
Probably just crap translations. I didn't watch the interview, but I'm assuming Putin wasn't speaking English.


Is that like the "reset" button translation?
__________________
The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get any worse every time Congress meets. - Will Rogers
ti317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 02:30 PM   #298
VaderDave
Invictus
 
VaderDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: El Dorado Hills, CA
Posts: 12,055
My Ride: 330CiC ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by ti317 View Post
Is that like the "reset" button translation?
Probably just some translator saying "he didn't deny it!" in the moment and then, when they re-viewed the tape, discovered he/she was wrong. It seems like they corrected themselves pretty quickly.
VaderDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 02:52 PM   #299
ti317
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 932
My Ride: 02 330ci coupe 5 spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaderDave View Post
Probably just some translator saying "he didn't deny it!" in the moment and then, when they re-viewed the tape, discovered he/she was wrong. It seems like they corrected themselves pretty quickly.


Why I brought that one up is that it seems that a lot of translation is done on the fly and and not proof read.
__________________
The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get any worse every time Congress meets. - Will Rogers
ti317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 03:20 PM   #300
VaderDave
Invictus
 
VaderDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: El Dorado Hills, CA
Posts: 12,055
My Ride: 330CiC ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by ti317 View Post
Why I brought that one up is that it seems that a lot of translation is done on the fly and and not proof read.
Maybe I'm just being dense at the moment but I'm not sure what the "reset" quote refers to.
VaderDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is ON



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
(c) 1999 - VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.