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Old 06-16-2008, 07:25 PM   #1
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Motor Capacity on M54

Plan on supercharging or turboing and was wondering how much a M54 330ci motor hold on stock internals? WHP and psi?
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:46 AM   #2
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i wanna know to is that the same motor as a 323 ci 2000 model 2 dr
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Old 06-17-2008, 04:12 AM   #3
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Manual or Auto tranny?
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Old 06-17-2008, 07:37 AM   #4
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I've seen some people here say that the M54 3.0L can take up to about 335 whp and 10psi.
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Old 06-17-2008, 08:13 AM   #5
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his is a manual tranny
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:12 AM   #6
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well mine is at 360whp and I'm still pushing
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:37 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by steelgrey330ci View Post
well mine is at 360whp and I'm still pushing



Garrett's UED AA TS car made close to 400whp on stock internals...

I'm also on close to 15psi, ~350whp, and stock internals (M52TU, but the only difference between the M54B30 is the stroke).
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Old 06-17-2008, 02:05 PM   #8
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Garrett's UED AA TS car made close to 400whp on stock internals...

I'm also on close to 15psi, ~350whp, and stock internals (M52TU, but the only difference between the M54B30 is the stroke).
Does Garrett still have that setup? I saw it at a meet down south over a year ago...haven't spoken to him since; wish I had more time to hang out in SOFLA
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Old 06-17-2008, 02:39 PM   #9
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Gerrett sold it.
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Old 06-17-2008, 02:41 PM   #10
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Yeah I believe he sold it to Bigjae1976.. ^^
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:51 PM   #11
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Yup, I've got it. I dyno'd 337rwhp/287tq, similar to a an ESS TS2+. I think that is nearing the limits of the engine. I've heard the OEM clutch can handle up to 300 ft/lbs of torque since mine hasn't started slipping.

You get upgraded pistons if you step up to the TS3 so that should give you a good idea of the limits.
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Old 06-17-2008, 06:47 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Activ3 View Post



Garrett's UED AA TS car made close to 400whp on stock internals...

I'm also on close to 15psi, ~350whp, and stock internals (M52TU, but the only difference between the M54B30 is the stroke).
That's good to hear. I've always wondered about your car, as I see the dyno chart and see you have a 328, and I'm really getting the boost-fever. I think I'm headed more in the direction of an ESS TSE2, but it's good to know that I don't have to do any bottom-end work to keep it running smoothly. I've heard extremely positive things about the M52B28TU when F/I, and I've also heard some very negative things.

In the end, I'd like to make as close to 400rwhp as possible with a twin-screw (which will require engine work, I know), cams, pistons, rods, valves, and whatever else. An M52TU with an 8k RPM redline and a twin-screw S/C is my dream. Realistically, I don't think I'd need the redline over 7k as it's a street car and I don't want all the power below 4k rpm to disappear without a trace.
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Old 06-17-2008, 08:16 PM   #13
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That's good to hear. I've always wondered about your car, as I see the dyno chart and see you have a 328, and I'm really getting the boost-fever. I think I'm headed more in the direction of an ESS TSE2, but it's good to know that I don't have to do any bottom-end work to keep it running smoothly. I've heard extremely positive things about the M52B28TU when F/I, and I've also heard some very negative things.

In the end, I'd like to make as close to 400rwhp as possible with a twin-screw (which will require engine work, I know), cams, pistons, rods, valves, and whatever else. An M52TU with an 8k RPM redline and a twin-screw S/C is my dream. Realistically, I don't think I'd need the redline over 7k as it's a street car and I don't want all the power below 4k rpm to disappear without a trace.
Whew lotta money involved there Nick...you would be

The TSE3 I think is about as close as you're gonna get...upgraded internals, around the ballpark power-wise, and backed by a great company...that should also get you the 7XXX redline, though if you wan't it higher, I can only see exponential engine and cash stress increases...

Even that is gonna leave you in a hole...probably 15k+ in parts (clutch, kit, lsd, tires (hehe)) and I cant even imagine the labor costs...probably 3-4k

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'm thinking 135 + Chip =
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:06 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by nleksan View Post
That's good to hear. I've always wondered about your car, as I see the dyno chart and see you have a 328, and I'm really getting the boost-fever. I think I'm headed more in the direction of an ESS TSE2, but it's good to know that I don't have to do any bottom-end work to keep it running smoothly. I've heard extremely positive things about the M52B28TU when F/I, and I've also heard some very negative things.

In the end, I'd like to make as close to 400rwhp as possible with a twin-screw (which will require engine work, I know), cams, pistons, rods, valves, and whatever else. An M52TU with an 8k RPM redline and a twin-screw S/C is my dream. Realistically, I don't think I'd need the redline over 7k as it's a street car and I don't want all the power below 4k rpm to disappear without a trace.
To reach the 400whp mark I think you'd have to swap to the 3.0L crank, and even then it might not be so easy. The TU intake manifold has smaller runners, and to swap to a M54 intake manifold requires some modification since it's a tight fit for our cable TB between the runners on the M54 manifold.

I hope to do cams by the end of the year...
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Old 06-18-2008, 02:28 AM   #15
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There are 3 areas that the M54 can fail.

Oil pump shaft/nut - This can happen to a stock M54, however power will play a factor in this. It's mostly engine harmonics from higher RPM use that cause this type of failure. I've heard from some very respected people that the cause of this failure is camshaft imbalances, however I personally believe that a "balanced camshaft" is a band-aid that covers up the real problem. The real problem I believe to be crankshaft harmonics, caused by the torsional flex of the crankshaft. I do not believe that a new crankshaft (Custom forged or billet) would solve the problem entirely, as you would still need a custom harmonic damper to torsionally balance the crankshaft. So this leaves us with the stock forged crankshaft, (For 2.8 and 3.0 engines) which needs a better balancer for stock applications seeing sustained higher RPM loads, and/or greater force (More power) being applied. Since we are talking about an FI engine, a balancer with more "tuned" mass is needed to counteract greater torsional forces within the crank. The mass and density a cylinder block has, the better it's ability to absorb the harmonics created from these torsional forces. Unfortunately, the lightweight aluminum M54 block isn't an ideal canidate for absorbing harmonics.

Which leads me to cylinder deformation.

A while ago, the M54 block was being developed for race use by a well known engine builder. One of the problems he saw with rebuilding the engine multiple times, was the limited thickness of the steel cylinder liners. Basically, they could only bore the cylinder once, after that the block was dead. They then tried to machine the block to accept sleeves, which was when they found out that it was the cylinder walls that held the block together. Basically, the machining process to insert the sleeves weakened the block so much that it deformed when handling it. Now I'm not saying that the M54 is an inherently weak block, just that it has some limitations to the amount of work you can do on it. Being that in FI, you want to have very stiff cylinder walls to contain high combustion pressures, the M54 from the get-go is starting with a bit of a handycap. The steel cylinder liner is about 1mm thick, that's it. Behind that is a web of aluminum that allows direct contact with coolant. The highest pressure area at the top of the cylinder bore has the most aluminum behind it, but keep that in mind...it's aluminum. Under high load, the M54 block has the potential to deform much more than a steel block like the M52 or S54. How this failure will manifest itself is with increased crank case pressure from excessive blow by, and reduced piston ring life.

Cylinder head sealing - I wouldn't say that the stock head gasket is bad, just that it's usually the first thing to fail in pushing the power envelope with FI. There are 2 critical areas that contribute to this, that I believe to be the real reason why the stock head gasket fails. 1.) There is very little distance between cylinders and coolant ports on the M54. This means there is a low amount of clamping area between areas of high pressure (Cylinder bore) and areas of low pressure. (Atmosphere, and coolant ports) 2.) The OEM fasteners are not suited for high loads. They are one-time-use fasteners that are suited to stock cylinder pressure loads. A third factor on engines that have been worked on, is the quality of the surface finish between the cylinder head and the block. The "roughness average" (RA) should be of a value around 50, which is approaching a "Mirror" finish. This allows on a microscopic level a greater amount of surface contact between the gasket and mating material. The more surface contact, the better the seal.

Piston rods really shouldn't be an issue unless you are spinning your engine above 6500 RPM and lifting off the throttle a lot. Lifting off the throttle places extreme loads on the back side of the rod, (cap) which obviously has a lot less material to it. The M54B28 and M54B30 enjoy forged rods from the factory, which to date have no documented cases of failure due to bending force. The only reason why I would suggest using a better set of rods would be due to running sustained elevated engine RPM.

The spec list below is for my personal engine which is currently being built to make around 600hp with nitrous and spin to 8400 RPM.

- Block machined with custom torque plate
- Stock Crank, journals micro polished
- Arrow Forged Rods
- CP 11:1 forged pistons
- Coated bearings
- VAC oil pump upgrade
- Bimmerworld billet piston oil squirters
- Baffled oil pan
- Moroso vacuum pump
- Custom ATI harmonic balancer
- Upgraded fasteners for main caps and head (Studs)
- Custom machined valves, new seals/locks/retainers
- Custom head porting (Lift and CFM to my specs)
- Custom camshafts
- Solid lifters
- S50B32 Euro ITB intake
- Kromer Kraft headers
- Pectel stand alone engine management by Apex Speed Tech

Then you need to factor in cooling for oil and water, which in my case has turned into one heck of a project by itself.

Cost for the above: You'd be better off buying an E92 M3.

Really guys, just buy a more powerful car to start with.
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Old 06-18-2008, 02:52 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pei330ci View Post
There are 3 areas that the M54 can fail.

Oil pump shaft/nut - This can happen to a stock M54, however power will play a factor in this. It's mostly engine harmonics from higher RPM use that cause this type of failure. I've heard from some very respected people that the cause of this failure is camshaft imbalances, however I personally believe that a "balanced camshaft" is a band-aid that covers up the real problem. The real problem I believe to be crankshaft harmonics, caused by the torsional flex of the crankshaft. I do not believe that a new crankshaft (Custom forged or billet) would solve the problem entirely, as you would still need a custom harmonic damper to torsionally balance the crankshaft. So this leaves us with the stock forged crankshaft, (For 2.8 and 3.0 engines) which needs a better balancer for stock applications seeing sustained higher RPM loads, and/or greater force (More power) being applied. Since we are talking about an FI engine, a balancer with more "tuned" mass is needed to counteract greater torsional forces within the crank. The mass and density a cylinder block has, the better it's ability to absorb the harmonics created from these torsional forces. Unfortunately, the lightweight aluminum M54 block isn't an ideal canidate for absorbing harmonics.

Which leads me to cylinder deformation.

A while ago, the M54 block was being developed for race use by a well known engine builder. One of the problems he saw with rebuilding the engine multiple times, was the limited thickness of the steel cylinder liners. Basically, they could only bore the cylinder once, after that the block was dead. They then tried to machine the block to accept sleeves, which was when they found out that it was the cylinder walls that held the block together. Basically, the machining process to insert the sleeves weakened the block so much that it deformed when handling it. Now I'm not saying that the M54 is an inherently weak block, just that it has some limitations to the amount of work you can do on it. Being that in FI, you want to have very stiff cylinder walls to contain high combustion pressures, the M54 from the get-go is starting with a bit of a handycap. The steel cylinder liner is about 1mm thick, that's it. Behind that is a web of aluminum that allows direct contact with coolant. The highest pressure area at the top of the cylinder bore has the most aluminum behind it, but keep that in mind...it's aluminum. Under high load, the M54 block has the potential to deform much more than a steel block like the M52 or S54. How this failure will manifest itself is with increased crank case pressure from excessive blow by, and reduced piston ring life.

Cylinder head sealing - I wouldn't say that the stock head gasket is bad, just that it's usually the first thing to fail in pushing the power envelope with FI. There are 2 critical areas that contribute to this, that I believe to be the real reason why the stock head gasket fails. 1.) There is very little distance between cylinders and coolant ports on the M54. This means there is a low amount of clamping area between areas of high pressure (Cylinder bore) and areas of low pressure. (Atmosphere, and coolant ports) 2.) The OEM fasteners are not suited for high loads. They are one-time-use fasteners that are suited to stock cylinder pressure loads. A third factor on engines that have been worked on, is the quality of the surface finish between the cylinder head and the block. The "roughness average" (RA) should be of a value around 50, which is approaching a "Mirror" finish. This allows on a microscopic level a greater amount of surface contact between the gasket and mating material. The more surface contact, the better the seal.

Piston rods really shouldn't be an issue unless you are spinning your engine above 6500 RPM and lifting off the throttle a lot. Lifting off the throttle places extreme loads on the back side of the rod, (cap) which obviously has a lot less material to it. The M54B28 and M54B30 enjoy forged rods from the factory, which to date have no documented cases of failure due to bending force. The only reason why I would suggest using a better set of rods would be due to running sustained elevated engine RPM.

The spec list below is for my personal engine which is currently being built to make around 600hp with nitrous and spin to 8400 RPM.

- Block machined with custom torque plate
- Stock Crank, journals micro polished
- Arrow Forged Rods
- CP 11:1 forged pistons
- Coated bearings
- VAC oil pump upgrade
- Bimmerworld billet piston oil squirters
- Baffled oil pan
- Moroso vacuum pump
- Custom ATI harmonic balancer
- Upgraded fasteners for main caps and head (Studs)
- Custom machined valves, new seals/locks/retainers
- Custom head porting (Lift and CFM to my specs)
- Custom camshafts
- Solid lifters
- S50B32 Euro ITB intake
- Kromer Kraft headers
- Pectel stand alone engine management by Apex Speed Tech

Then you need to factor in cooling for oil and water, which in my case has turned into one heck of a project by itself.

Cost for the above: You'd be better off buying an E92 M3.

Really guys, just buy a more powerful car to start with.
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:09 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david05111 View Post
Whew lotta money involved there Nick...you would be

The TSE3 I think is about as close as you're gonna get...upgraded internals, around the ballpark power-wise, and backed by a great company...that should also get you the 7XXX redline, though if you wan't it higher, I can only see exponential engine and cash stress increases...

Even that is gonna leave you in a hole...probably 15k+ in parts (clutch, kit, lsd, tires (hehe)) and I cant even imagine the labor costs...probably 3-4k

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'm thinking 135 + Chip =
I realize it would be a lot of money, but spread out over 2 or so years, the numbers don't become as frightening. Obviously I'm trying to get as much of the normally-aspirated aspect, other than the "built engine" part, out of the way before the supercharger comes. I'd like to have headers, hi-flow cats, exhaust, cams, and perhaps a bigger throttle body (I can imagine this would only increase the throttle response of the already impressive ESS TSE* series, but if I'm wrong feel free to correct me). Also, I'd like to have my drivetrain ready for some real power, so basically I want the supercharger to feel like it's being nestled into its home, with everything ready and waiting to make it work its best. That would give me an excellent starting point for an engine build, as I would want everything done to spec regarding it being boosted, which if done before the S/C, would be tuned all out of whack I would think.

As my car has 90k miles, most of the drivetrain upgrades/mods I can "justify" as they are, for the most part, wear and tear items that have to be replaced anyway. I'll just be replacing them with better, stronger, lighter parts. Obviously the clutch/flywheel will be upgraded, and I'm thinking the 12lb flywheel would be well-suited to my application, as anything lighter probably won't be as strong, and with this being a torque-crazy F/I setup, the slightly reduced weight isn't worth the loss of street-ability. I'll also be using either UUC's S2 or S3 clutch, although I'm thus undecided.

I'll also be installing the TMS subframe reinforcement kit. I had my subframe repaired by BMWNA (at their expense), but the reinforcement kit would give me a lot more confidence in the chassis. Using RE engine mounts and differential mounts would help tighten things up, especially for the 3.23 LSD I'll be installing. I've got so much to do to this car, that I'm being realistic and giving myself tons of time to do it. $300 there, $600 there over the course of a couple of years will have phenomenal results, won't put me on the edge of bankruptcy, will allow me to focus on multiple areas at once (suspension I'm pretty well done with, as sway-bars, strut bars, and adj. rear control arms are the only things I can think to add; the exterior will be getting M-Tech II Front w/ CF CS Splitters, M-Tech II Rear w/ CF diffuser, undecided sides, M3 mirrors, CSL boot, and M3-style hood; interior is undecided). This will also give me the advantage to fully document each and every modification, as well as having a decent amount of time to fully analyze each one and allow it be nice and broken in by the time the next mod goes in.

All in all, I don't plan on doing this halfway at all; it's either gonna be done right or not at all.
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:16 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Activ3 View Post



Garrett's UED AA TS car made close to 400whp on stock internals...

I'm also on close to 15psi, ~350whp, and stock internals (M52TU, but the only difference between the M54B30 is the stroke).
Actually, I think that is 400 crank hp, not at the wheels.
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:17 AM   #19
PEI330Ci
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Location: PEI,Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nleksan View Post
I realize it would be a lot of money, but spread out over 2 or so years, the numbers don't become as frightening. Obviously I'm trying to get as much of the normally-aspirated aspect, other than the "built engine" part, out of the way before the supercharger comes. I'd like to have headers, hi-flow cats, exhaust, cams, and perhaps a bigger throttle body (I can imagine this would only increase the throttle response of the already impressive ESS TSE* series, but if I'm wrong feel free to correct me). Also, I'd like to have my drivetrain ready for some real power, so basically I want the supercharger to feel like it's being nestled into its home, with everything ready and waiting to make it work its best. That would give me an excellent starting point for an engine build, as I would want everything done to spec regarding it being boosted, which if done before the S/C, would be tuned all out of whack I would think.

As my car has 90k miles, most of the drivetrain upgrades/mods I can "justify" as they are, for the most part, wear and tear items that have to be replaced anyway. I'll just be replacing them with better, stronger, lighter parts. Obviously the clutch/flywheel will be upgraded, and I'm thinking the 12lb flywheel would be well-suited to my application, as anything lighter probably won't be as strong, and with this being a torque-crazy F/I setup, the slightly reduced weight isn't worth the loss of street-ability. I'll also be using either UUC's S2 or S3 clutch, although I'm thus undecided.

I'll also be installing the TMS subframe reinforcement kit. I had my subframe repaired by BMWNA (at their expense), but the reinforcement kit would give me a lot more confidence in the chassis. Using RE engine mounts and differential mounts would help tighten things up, especially for the 3.23 LSD I'll be installing. I've got so much to do to this car, that I'm being realistic and giving myself tons of time to do it. $300 there, $600 there over the course of a couple of years will have phenomenal results, won't put me on the edge of bankruptcy, will allow me to focus on multiple areas at once (suspension I'm pretty well done with, as sway-bars, strut bars, and adj. rear control arms are the only things I can think to add; the exterior will be getting M-Tech II Front w/ CF CS Splitters, M-Tech II Rear w/ CF diffuser, undecided sides, M3 mirrors, CSL boot, and M3-style hood; interior is undecided). This will also give me the advantage to fully document each and every modification, as well as having a decent amount of time to fully analyze each one and allow it be nice and broken in by the time the next mod goes in.

All in all, I don't plan on doing this halfway at all; it's either gonna be done right or not at all.
That is a heck of a lot of work. You would be better off doing it all at once, as many components would need to be removed and re-installed multiple times according to your plans.

Oh...and the "$300 here, $600 there" scenario will turn into "$3000 here, $6000 there". I've had an enourmous amount of labor put into my car. (Luckily the majority of it was done by myself) Also, I've spent over $5k on my tool set since I started my project. You've been warned...
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:28 AM   #20
bigjae1976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Activ3 View Post



Garrett's UED AA TS car made close to 400whp on stock internals...

I'm also on close to 15psi, ~350whp, and stock internals (M52TU, but the only difference between the M54B30 is the stroke).
Actually, I think that is 400 crank hp, not at the wheels.
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