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Old 11-09-2019, 03:17 PM   #961
WDE46
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The Official "Bad Cop" thread.

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WHY should he have given an overly resistive motorist a bone?!? The motorist began the stop with ramped up behavior, which automatically puts the officer on alert because that type of behavior is atypical. Like I stated earlier, people who refuse to identify themselves often have other issues they are attempting to conceal, and I would wager that even if the officer had provided him the reason for the stop (..CVC 22450(a)), he wouldíve argued why he did/didnít run the sign and it wouldíve still escalated (...despite his girlfriend more reasonably suggesting on at least two occasions for him to give the officer his driverís license; even though she was also arrested and charged with a misdemeanor because she wouldnít get off the phone and exit the vehicle when the officer asked her multiple times to do so because they were going to tow the vehicle. Ahhhh.....more stupid games and more stupid prizes.).



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I get that itís likely heís got something to hide. Still couldíve just tried the ONE thing. I think the chance is slim he would cooperate after that, but you could try once and see. The chance is greater than zero. If he moves the goalposts then you go with standing your ground on getting his ID because in that case heís undeniably evading. If it worked the officer saved himself a lot of trouble. If it doesnít it literally cost nothing.


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Old 11-09-2019, 03:26 PM   #962
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I get that itís likely heís got something to hide. Still couldíve just tried the ONE thing. I think the chance is slim he would cooperate after that, but you could try once and see. The chance is greater than zero. If he moves the goalposts then you go with standing your ground on getting his ID because in that case heís undeniably evading. If it worked the officer saved himself a lot of trouble. If it doesnít it literally cost nothing.


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I can give you that point.


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Old 11-09-2019, 08:58 PM   #963
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I can give you that point.


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Ok cool because thatís all Iíve been getting at. Itís just one thing. I know shitheads and the driver probably is one but I think youíre obligated to try once to appease but not twice because then youíre letting them walk on you.


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Old 11-09-2019, 09:08 PM   #964
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I can give you that point.


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Ok cool because thatís all Iíve been getting at. Itís just one thing. I know shitheads and the driver probably is one but I think youíre obligated to try once to appease but not twice because then youíre letting them walk on you.


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Old 12-08-2019, 01:17 AM   #965
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Old 12-08-2019, 04:48 AM   #966
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Iíll save you the time. Hereís my perspective, and the perspective of a few other LEOís on Bimmerpost. I think some members tagged me beginning on the bottom of the 2nd page. Weíve covered a lot, so youíll need to read through the entire thread.


About That Bonkers Crazy Shootout in Rush Hour Traffic in Miami https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1675826


Weíve also covered it a bit here; starting on page 17:

The official "Ask a cop/deputy anything!" thread https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1660859

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwel on "Manhattan Project"
You heard of me.....burgandy and outlines like murder scenes; Germany..took ferns and flat whites for blurring greens.

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Old 12-08-2019, 03:07 PM   #967
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If thereís a hostage how can they shoot? That goes against everything I was taught.


Edit: I guess the question then becomes ďdid they know there was a hostage?Ē

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Old 12-08-2019, 03:18 PM   #968
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If thereís a hostage how can they shoot? That goes against everything I was taught.


Edit: I guess the question then becomes ďdid they know there was a hostage?Ē

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Yes! Itís the last resort, but it is an option. Sacrifice one to save many. It sounds horrible to say, but that is the reality. There were many innocent men, women and children in that incident zone who couldíve become casualties/additional hostages.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwel on "Manhattan Project"
You heard of me.....burgandy and outlines like murder scenes; Germany..took ferns and flat whites for blurring greens.

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Old 12-08-2019, 03:59 PM   #969
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Originally Posted by M3Inline6 View Post
Yes! Itís the last resort, but it is an option. Sacrifice one to save many. It sounds horrible to say, but that is the reality. There were many innocent men, women and children in that incident zone who couldíve become casualties/additional hostages.


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I know this isn't a movie but the scene from Speed comes to mind: shoot the hostage. Is that a valid LE response? I can't let myself think so.

I think if an LEO/SO/Armed civilian inadvertently shoots a person who is not a threat to them they should turn in their badge and never carry a gun.

It's obvious to me that Miami PD has a mentality of "Miami Vice" and their management backs them up. However, we have seen similar situations, although not with hostages (I think) in California. The shootouts with the guys with AKs and the more recent terrorists in San Bernardino ended with the gunmen/women being killed in their in/near their vehicles without innocents being hit. I think SWAT was involved both times. M3 you probably have more knowledge than I do about those events.

Maybe it will turn out that the failure was that SWAT wasn't involved in this case. At least from the videos it looks like regular patrol units and most only had their side arms. A 50 yard head shot with a glock 17 is not that easy. Especially if you are taking fire coming from inside a UPS truck and can't see the shooter/s.

However, I wasn't there and I never will be in that situation. But I have to train and run through the scenarios because one day I could be.

AAR's are the key to learning from these incidents. I look forward to the facts coming out and as always your analysis.

/vr
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Old 12-08-2019, 04:25 PM   #970
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I know this isn't a movie but the scene from Speed comes to mind: shoot the hostage. Is that a valid LE response? I can't let myself think so.



I think if an LEO/SO/Armed civilian inadvertently shoots a person who is not a threat to them they should turn in their badge and never carry a gun.



It's obvious to me that Miami PD has a mentality of "Miami Vice" and their management backs them up. However, we have seen similar situations, although not with hostages (I think) in California. The shootouts with the guys with AKs and the more recent terrorists in San Bernardino ended with the gunmen/women being killed in their in/near their vehicles without innocents being hit. I think SWAT was involved both times. M3 you probably have more knowledge than I do about those events.



Maybe it will turn out that the failure was that SWAT wasn't involved in this case. At least from the videos it looks like regular patrol units and most only had their side arms. A 50 yard head shot with a glock 17 is not that easy. Especially if you are taking fire coming from inside a UPS truck and can't see the shooter/s.



However, I wasn't there and I never will be in that situation. But I have to train and run through the scenarios because one day I could be.



AAR's are the key to learning from these incidents. I look forward to the facts coming out and as always your analysis.



/vr


I think youíre misinterpreting what Iím saying. This wasnít a ďshoot the hostage as a means to an endĒ scenario. This was a ďshoot at the suspects knowing thereís a hostage present......somewhere, but there are many more lives present that neednít become another hostage/collateral damageĒ scenario. We donít know if the perpetrators killed the hostage or if the hostage died from police crossfire. In any case, police had to neutralize that very real public threat. NOT shooting wasnít an option, and mobilizing untrained and panicked civilians wasnít an option either, at least not without risking their lives in the process. It was a bad situation for law enforcement to have to negotiate. No officer wants to end the lives of the innocent; somebody he/she is trying to save.

I am intimately familiar with both the San Bernardino terrorist situation and the CHP Motor Officer situation. Do remember that the terrorist shooting was the incident in which my law enforcement mentor lost his daughter; my ex of 9 years her sister. That situation hit very close to home. The CHP Motor Officer that was killed by rifle fire on the freeway 4-ish months ago was my good friend. The Hollywood Shootout happened when I was in high school, so I had no perspective on what was occurring, but I look at the situation differently now than I did then, mostly because I have a much higher level of understanding now that Iím on the blue side.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwel on "Manhattan Project"
You heard of me.....burgandy and outlines like murder scenes; Germany..took ferns and flat whites for blurring greens.

Last edited by M3Inline6; 12-08-2019 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 12-08-2019, 10:41 PM   #971
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I think youíre misinterpreting what Iím saying. This wasnít a ďshoot the hostage as a means to an endĒ scenario. This was a ďshoot at the suspects knowing thereís a hostage present......somewhere, but there are many more lives present that neednít become another hostage/collateral damageĒ scenario. We donít know if the perpetrators killed the hostage or if the hostage died from police crossfire. In any case, police had to neutralize that very real public threat. NOT shooting wasnít an option, and mobilizing untrained and panicked civilians wasnít an option either, at least not without risking their lives in the process. It was a bad situation for law enforcement to have to negotiate. No officer wants to end the lives of the innocent; somebody he/she is trying to save.

I am intimately familiar with both the San Bernardino terrorist situation and the CHP Motor Officer situation. Do remember that the terrorist shooting was the incident in which my law enforcement mentor lost his daughter; my ex of 9 years her sister. That situation hit very close to home. The CHP Motor Officer that was killed by rifle fire on the freeway 4-ish months ago was my good friend. The Hollywood Shootout happened when I was in high school, so I had no perspective on what was occurring, but I look at the situation differently now than I did then, mostly because I have a much higher level of understanding now that Iím on the blue side.


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Thanks for the clarification. Yes I was misunderstanding.

Thatís one heck of a sh*t sandwich for those Miami officers. They are definitely between a rock and a hard place.

Iím waiting for more clear video to know more about what exactly happened. Iím sure there will be better reconstructions.
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Old 12-08-2019, 11:21 PM   #972
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Thanks for the clarification. Yes I was misunderstanding.

Thatís one heck of a sh*t sandwich for those Miami officers. They are definitely between a rock and a hard place.

Iím waiting for more clear video to know more about what exactly happened. Iím sure there will be better reconstructions.


Indeed! The incident will be quarterbacked just like every other major incident, and suppositions will be offered from both sides of the aisle. Miami PD/the respective county will pay the decedentís families, and undoubtedly somebody will have to shoulder the blame (...and I wouldnít be surprised if an officer or two ďretiresĒ over this).

As a law enforcer, we typically get one high profile shoot. Justified or not, itís usually a wrap after that; youíre out of a job under most circumstances. Itís unfortunate because the publicís expectation of law enforcement is to get it right 100% of the time, and that is both an unfair and an unreal expectation. Even firefighters arenít held to that standard.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwel on "Manhattan Project"
You heard of me.....burgandy and outlines like murder scenes; Germany..took ferns and flat whites for blurring greens.

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Old 12-10-2019, 06:23 PM   #973
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Do you know how many bullets the German police shot in the whole of last year? Less than a 100...
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Old 12-10-2019, 06:30 PM   #974
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Yeah didn't know these cops trained using Grand Theft Auto V.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:18 AM   #975
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Do you know how many bullets the German police shot in the whole of last year? Less than a 100...


Germany is a very different place than the U.S.


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